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Well fans, the first real football event has started for the 2025 season as the Chargers kicked off training camp last week. We can use this thread to discuss anything training camp related (or not) like player reports, injuries, position battles etc. The biggest blow to the team so far out of camp was the retiring of Mike Williams. I wish all the best to #81, he will be missed. It would have been great to see one last ride with Herbert to see what he could have done, but this just leaves the door open for others to step into an opportunity. From the limited clips I have seen, it looks like QJ has made some plays, Tre Harris has also looked smooth in some 1v1 drills and KLS has caught a few bombs from Herb. It will be interesting to see how the coaching staff handles the HOF game. I don’t expect to see any of the big time vets like Herb, Mack, Derwin, Ladd, Slater, Alt, Henley etc. out there, but I wonder if they give the starting IOL a series or two to see how they do in their new roles? Should be interesting to see who gets some playing time. And lastly for this post, is anyone else getting concerned about this Slater deal? I am not sure what the holdup is? Every day they wait the price goes up and he is now sort of sitting in and not participating in field activities in camp. I’m not panicked, yet, but it definitely bears watching as we get deeper into camp. I know I will breathe a sigh of relief when I finally see the contract agreement come through in my notifications. Ok people, fire away with anything on your mind. Football is back!!!!
Erick: Thanks for putting this together. A few comments:
WR:
- BFTB was full of “bring back Keenan” posts. Two reasons this will not happen; fit and cost. It’s going to take $16M-$17M/year over 2 years to sign Allen. That’s a bit less than his 2024 hit, but still would be more than any other receiver on the team. MWill was going to play Z while Harris learned the NFL game. Keenan is not a Z receiver. Allen needs to play in the slot. If they pay Keenan $16M, they are going to play him, which means Ladd, the teams best receiver (even with Allen on the team) sees a reduced role. Makes no sense to me.
- I will believe QJ has turned the corner when I see him consistently catch 5-7 yard passes on third down. I can find lots of reports from 2024 lauding his improvements. I do think he improved in 2024, but was not a player the team could depend on in critical moments. Until he proves he can perform under pressure, I will be skeptical (but rooting for him).
OL:
- Unlike the Harris holdout, I think Slater can come in late and perform well. Provided he’s in football shape, camp is less important (especially with the same coaching staff). They do need to get a deal done ASAP – The market is going nowhere but up
- Zion at LG and Bozeman at center in 2025 will not help my alcohol consumption. The book is out on those two. Defenses know how to disrupt their blocking schemes with stunts. Rolling back the same two dudes that were a big part of the offensive problem in 2024 is no bueno. Something here needs to change
- I’m interested to see the new and improved Salyer. Sat on the sidelines during the Atlanta game last year. That dude was fat, even for a guard. Jamaree has great feet.
Defense:
- Great depth around the roster. Impressive what Hortiz has been able to do with this roster
- The weak link of this defense is the IDL. If Tart, Caldwell and Hand can play at a NFL+ level, this defense could be very, very good.
@kevdiego Great points here. I am really annoyed at the attention given to the IOL in the offseason as well. For a regime that wants to be a physical team and dominate the LOS they sure left a lot to be desired on both sides. The few clips I have seen with Zion at C had him missing stunts that in a real game would have had Herbert crushed. Look, I am not an NFL coach, but I do believe that players have certain attributes that cannot be corrected or improved by training. Zion has proved that awareness is not a strong point of his game, so thinking he can elevate that attribute with MORE responsibility and awareness needed at C makes no sense to me. I have said that I think Hortiz had a bad FA period this year. He did not properly judge the market on players and seemed to suffer from sticker shock. He acted like a poor kid who suddenly had some $, but was scared to spend any of it for fear of being poor again. How else can you justify letting Ford walk for a very reasonable contract? If you factor in that you probably saved 3-4M of what he should have been paid for his 2024 production, then it made it even worse not to buck up a few more sheckles this time to bring hm back. Becton was an upgrade, but he is a risk given his injury history and the small sample size of the switch to OG while being surrounded by the best overall OL in the sport. He’s no slam dunk to repeat 2024.
I also think the draft got away from him a bit. The board became a blood bath when every conceivable target went right off the board in the 4-5 picks before us. He was trying to trade out until the last second and just defaulted to the top player left on the board to select Hampton. This team had so many more needs to fill with a premium pick than RB. I think the real kick in the nuts was Pitt selecting Harmon the pick before us. That threw the draft into a tail spin and we were playing catch up after that to fill holes which is why we really got no immediate OL help. In a perfect world, we would have went Harmon, Harris, Milum. Since we did have Bozeman, Zion and Becton already penciled in at IOL, DT was a bigger hole so it needed Caldwell in Rd3. I have always felt that IDL is a sweet spot after cuts especially for rotation guys, so maybe there is another move to be made there to help?
Overall, I think the roster is way better depth wise than anything we had ever seen from Telesco, but there are still a few question marks at some critical position groups (IDL,IOL, CB). I guess we have to wait to see how things shake out in camp?
It’s pretty clear that plans A, B & C to fix the IOL were thwarted by other teams/the market. I agree that asking a player like Zion who is great when moving forward but easy to fool when he’s in pass pro and has to react to suddenly gain situational awareness is not a great plan. You can train strength, drill technique, coach scheme, but you can’t transplant personalities. This was one of the more frustrating aspects of 2024. We all knew what was coming. The coaching staff had no counter-punch. If the player can’t adjust and you don’t have another player, adjust the scheme. Short, quick passes. Having an RB like Haskins watch for stunts. Lots of adjustments could have been made, but were not. Very stubborn coaching. Very bad coaching.
Also agree with your points on the draft and FA. I still think the front office did a very good job, just not a great job. And failing to find a quality center potentially limits the team’s 2025 outcomes.
And… Stormcloud just did some weird technical shit & posted a blank reply. Flashed, then I was in a new window with a blank reply. Looking forward to Kyle’s fixes…
@kevdiego As I posted at BFTB, with respect to Allen:
- Disagree it will take anything close to 2 years, $32M+ to sign him. Not happening or he would already be on a team. If he wants to play, my guess is $8M for 1 year or possibly $15M for 2 years, but likely with an out for the team after 1.
- Williams was not going to play Z. He was going to open the season as the starter at X and would have played the majority of his snaps there. Johnston would have played most of the Z snaps. Maybe you meant to say Williams was going to play X and Allen is not an X WR at this point of his career. I would agree with that. But then you wrote Keenan is not a Z WR. That is flat wrong. Yes, he has played the most in recent seasons in the slot, but he has been great at Z throughout his career. As at BFTB, I think you might be confusing the WR terminology here, so it’s hard to tell if I am reading you correctly.
@tau837 I asked google to forecast Allen’s contract. That is where I got the $32M number. I just asked google again, and that went down to $10M/year, still a lot, but much more palatable.
The point on position is that both Ladd and Keenan are “slot” receivers. Signing Allen means either less snaps for Ladd (the best receiver on the team) or playing one of them in a position they are not suited for. Maybe the Chargers should look at another FA receiver like Amari Cooper, who is a better fit and can be signed for approximately the same price (or better still, they should have allocated $14M/year to Dalman to play center). I get the nostalgia. Just not sure signing Allen is the best move for the 2025 Chargers.
Per PFF, here are the snap percentages Allen played in the slot in recent years:
- 2024: 54.2%
- 2023: 59.0%
- 2022: 64.6%
- 2021: 62.6%
- 2020: 51.7%
Last season, McConkey played 69.3% of his snaps in the slot. Both of them are very capable of excelling at Z, as they have proven on the field. There would be absolutely no problem finding quality snaps for both of them at slot and Z. The player who would lose out the most is Johnston, who currently stands to be the likely leader in Z snaps.
I do agree that Cooper is a better fit because he plays primarily at X, which is where Williams would have mainly played. He may or may not be cheaper. Regardless, I’m skeptical the Chargers will do it. I think their approach now is Tre or bust.
Regarding Dalman, he wasn’t a good fit for the Chargers scheme. I feel like this has been discussed previously.
@tau837 I remember the discussion about Dalman. Not sure I was fully aligned with that perspective, but I do acknowledge that there are people that know a hell of a lot more about scheme fit than I do that felt he was not a good fit. I just want a center that can call protections. I would rather have an average player that doesn’t exactly fit the scheme than have a player that can play the position physically, but cannot play it mentally.
@kevdiego I put quite a bit of faith in the Guilty As Charged guys, and Steven was a college OL, so I particularly trust his takes on OL. He was adamant that Dalman was not a fit, because he is best suited to a wide zone scheme.
@tau837 I am sure Steven knows a lot more than I do about OL. I’m also pretty confident that, if I see another season of Bozeman/Johnson standing in their ready position while stunting edge players whip across their face and smash Herbert, my wine cellar may be empty by the end of the year.
For the love of god, please find a center that can mentally play the position.
@tau837 I always take scheme fit with a grain of salt. Just because a player played primarily in one scheme doesn’t mean he can’t be successful in another. It’s not like you are asking them to switch positions. It would be like saying a teacher that taught 3rd grade couldn’t teach 5th grade. It’s the same position, just different material. I also have the same philosophy for drafting. Why draft players specifically for a scheme? There’s a better chance the coaching staff and scheme is gone before the player.
Sure, grain of salt always makes sense.
But this case is a bit different. Dalman is on the smaller side of NFL standards and was viewed entering the league as a zone scheme center.
His PFF run blocking grades support that assessment:
- 2024: zone 82.3, gap 65.0
- 2023: zone 90.9, gap 70.4
- 2022: zone 75.2, gap 55.2
Would he be a better fit in the Chargers scheme than Bozeman? Probably. But (a) that is a low bar and (b) that’s probably not a basis strong enough to make him one of the highest paid centers in the league, which is what it would have taken to sign him.
@tau837 I agree with Tau on this one. I think scheme fit is pretty dang important for Corners and OL, in particular. Those Arty Smith, run-centric, outside zone schemes not only suit more athletic linemen (cf Roman’s scheme), but they also heavily insulate OL from true pass protection sets with their higher usage of boot action.
The criteria Hortiz and Roman would apply to a prospective Center (in their) scheme would be materially different to the criteria Arthur Smith would apply.
The interesting factor here is that Ben Johnson chose to sign Dalman. The Lions ran a balanced scheme last year, but lent quite a bit into the Trap game (and other Gap scheme runs). I’ll be watching their schemes this year. Does signing Dalman mean Ben Johnson will run more outside zone and boot action? Or, like Erick, do they think Dalman he can be successful running Gap scheme?
The interesting factor here is that Ben Johnson chose to sign Dalman. The Lions ran a balanced scheme last year, but lent quite a bit into the Trap game (and other Gap scheme runs). I’ll be watching their schemes this year. Does signing Dalman mean Ben Johnson will run more outside zone and boot action? Or, like Erick, do they think Dalman he can be successful running Gap scheme?
FWIW, per PFF last year, Detroit centers ran 318 zone plays and 160 gap plays. Seems like a good fit for Dalman based on what I have read.
So I’m not sure your premise is on point.
@tau837 Ok there you go! I know that Coach Dan Casey and some other online Offensive “Gurus” have posted Insta cut-ups of Ben Johnson’s Trap calls and some other Gaps runs. I’ve watched those.
But it appears the volume was heavily zone…
As of now, not at all sure whether to read this as encouraging regarding the IDL, discouraging regarding the IOL, or just camp news. It sounds as of now like we’ll be running back the same OC/LG combo as last year and that doesn’t inspire confidence….on a few levels.
I sat on the sidelines (a friend of ours has Falcon field level box seats – Check out the “Field-Level Terrace” suites here: https://www.mercedesbenzstadium.com/clubs-suites) at the Chargers falcons game last year. We were right behind the Chargers bench. My two take-aways from that game were the secondary were having a lot of fun and Salyer was fat. I mean really fat.
If you put that man’s quickness and football situational awareness in Zion Johnson’s body…. Wow. That could solve the LG problem.
@kevdiego sounds like the Ben Herbert factor may have really paid off here. Zion may well find himself in a backup role. It’s quite possible we’re witnessing his demotion.
Now if James can show out at center and Becton pays off, we could see a big improvement in the IOL. Yes, I realize a lot of ifs, hopes, and maybes here. That’s realistically where we are with this group.
@buck-melanoma Salyer/James/Becton playing at NFL Average+ levels would be a huge win for this team. Solve the IOL problem and this team is very dangerous.
Gonna try to catch this from Calgary….maybe.
@buck-melanoma Outside of the first quarter or two I wouldn’t be worried about seeing anyone worthwhile, so no big deal if you are busy up north. Enjoy the trip. Can’t wait to hear about the different locations.
@buck-melanoma So stoked you’re having a great trip Buck. Are you still in Vancouver? If you’re in BC, I would highly, highly recommend visiting Kelowna. I use to visit once a summer, my Grandad owns a restaraunt there. It’s an amazingly beautiful lake town about 3-4 hours from Vancouver
@kylededi I’m currently in Kamloops getting a few issues addressed on the bike. Headed to Clearwater for tonight, then on to Calgary tomorrow for a couple of days, then back to the States at Glacier.
@buck-melanoma Hey Buck are you following any sort of itinerary or are you just going with the flow as it comes along?
@erick-v a flexible itinerary. Had most of my lodging lined up but able to extend if I want. Have some music dates set and flat track motorcycle races in Springfield IL on Labor Day weekend.
This happened today just outside of Jasper Canada in Alberta.
@buck-melanoma Wow man. What a sight. You Picked the perfect time to be traveling Western Canada and the Northern US states. Thanks for the updates. Safe travels and keep having a blast.
@buck-melanoma I haven’t been to Kamloops or Clearwater, but if the climate is similar to Kelowna I’m sure you’re loving it! It’s high on my list of places I’d love to retire one day.
Ok, so there’s a good chance I miss the beginning of tonight’s game, but here are the obvious cut candidates I’ll be interested to watch in the second half:
DJ Uiagalelei – part for SoCal roots, part for redemption from a terrible college career, and just a little bit bc my man over at Bolt Beat was down on him.
Dalevon Campbell – the churn at WR 4-6 will be interesting over the coming weeks. Campbell won’t be there, but looks like a PS stash.
Tre’Mon Morris-Brash – another big preseason for him? I hope they never need his services in the season, but if they do, I’d love to see him go nuts.
Nikko Reed – who the heck is this guy? From camp reports he’s daring this team to release him. They will because of numbers, but great to see an unknown ball out.
Hope to chat with any of you brave enough to spend a beautiful Thursday evening (or Friday morning) watching so-so football.
@smith I am so starved, I will at least find myself getting through the first half and I will be recording it so that I can see some of the lower tier guys and see if I notice anything I like.
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