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That area honestly may never be the same. It’s hard to fathom the destruction.
Immediate post-game thoughts from me and Jack (not remotely sober) 😆: https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1840609751131934855
Watched the game early this morning. Nothing Popper says here is wrong. What he left out is that Roman’s second half play calling shit the bed.
@buck-melanoma I’m gonna chalk this one off as the Chargers missing 4 of their 5 top players on BOTH sides of the ball. Defense still looked pretty good and kept them in the game.
Offensively, however, I expected more than what I saw yesterday. It almost seems like their opening few possessions of every game seems to go pretty well. But as soon as Roman is forced to call unscripted play calls based on the flow of the game, things go to hell. Again, I’ll chalk it off as the offense missing their two starting Tackles, forcing them into a more one dimensional game plan. But if this keeps up, Roman will be the first one on the chopping block.
The next four games are winnable (Denver, AZ, Saints, Browns). But I’m definitely not placing the cart before the horse.
@lfg_boltz I’m more lenient overall concerning the loss because yes, the team was basically a walking MASH unit. I’m less so toward Roman. The play calling worked against lesser opponents. We saw cracks in it vs Pittsburgh. Yesterday in the 1st, particularly the 1st Q, we saw a good mix of run, pass, RPO, and screens. It was working….with this makeshift OL. I expect the opponent’s defense to adjust….but Roman’s adjustments were woefully.
Our record is where I expected it to be going into the bye. I’m not overly disappointed or surprised, certainly not despairing. But my patience with Roman is quite thin. The 4th and goal call was fucking atrocious.
Harbaugh needs to sharpen his clock management too. That challenge was a mistake. Whatever he thought he saw on replay was misguided. Staley would be getting absolutely roasted for it….deservedly so.
@buck-melanoma I missed the first half of the game coaching my son’s Tball team. When I turned it on part way through the 3rd Q, all I noticed was repeated pressure on nearly every one of Herbert’s dropbacks. I don’t think there was a single play where he comfortably had time in the pocket. I was actually surprised at how well he was moving around to generate an extra second or two but it still wasn’t enough. If his injury was a little worse he would’ve had to take a lot of sacks.
My one observation critical of the coaching is that they don’t seem to have a good response to constant blitzing. If they line up in 12, the opposing D sends 6 guys and still has 5 back to defend three routes and there’s no easy outlet route for Herbert. I’m not seeing a RB or TE slip out and be available for a dumpoff outlet, or even just one of the WRs running a quick slant. Its usually 2 WR and 1 TE running to the sticks. Seems pretty easy to defend from this amateur armchair.
@blue-beers I watched this morning because I was loading aid trucks for western NC until dark.
Screens, both to RBs & TEs, were working early. I understand defenses adapt but I still believe they could have been used to slow down/foil the pass rush. Roman basically abandoned them.
@buck-melanoma I recall two plays in the second half that were attempts at screens (one to Dobbins and one to Hurst I think) and they both just failed. But even those were designed plays from the get-go.
I’m simply talking about having some outlet options when defenses bring extra pressure. Herbert needs some sort of outlet to counter these blitzes and they haven’t adjusted.
Good on you helping out btw!!!
To me this loss is a bit on Roman but more than that was the dismal interior line play. They could not run the ball effectively making them one dimensional and Herbert had no time. That screen to the TE in the fourth quarter, a great call against that defense, would have gone for 20+ if Herbert had any time. Chris Jones was on him in like 0.5 seconds.
There were guys open but they could not contain the interior pass rush and some times from the outside
as well. Not sure how you fix it without better talent but Mustipher is not the answer. He was absolutely terrible. How can your second backup guard be a guy who was on the street two weeks ago????
To his credit, Harbaugh said after the game that he could have done the challenges better and has to improve. He said he called the first one in part to give the defense a chance to get organized and give them a blow.
On the missed challenge, he thought the replay official would have adjusted the spot if Palmer had not been touched (a subtle dig at the officials who had an entire timeout to get it right) and was more focused on getting the right call – FG or go for it on fourth down but said in retrospect he should have challenged it.
I hate to be the parrot here, but I think we all saw what we saw. The offense hasn’t scored in five of eight quarters in the last two games, including zero second half points. This is what nags me about the decision to go for it on 4th down in a tied game with a Dicker chip shot for the lead. The defense was playing really well, and though I know you can go with the adage of “you don’t beat champions with field goals,” you also don’t beat the champions—who you’ve held to ten points thus far—by not scoring some actual dang points.
Roman has to have some answers for second half adjustments. And I know the team’s roster was seriously depleted, but they were in the red zone in the fourth quarter with a chance to go ahead. I think that’s on Harbaugh. Three points there changes how Reid calls his game. It also gives the Chargers defense a little momentum because of the scoreboard.
I’m also concerned that as well as this defense is playing that Minter—and I’ve heard Money Smith mention as much—is climbing the list of potential HC candidates for next year. Even without Bosa, Derwin, Junior, Ja, and Deane Leonard, this defense was putting wood to the Chiefs. (And, yes, I know they lost Rice early.) But play to strengths, and the defense is the strength right now. Let them pin their ears back.
I thought the Chargers would be 2-2 right now and are still in shape to win nine or ten games this year, but dang it’s frustrating to let two winnable games slip away in the past two weeks.
Here’s to a bunch of guys getting healthy over the bye week. And to Roman ginning up an idea or two as to how to score second half points.
@smith TBH it’s not the record that has me worried, because I thought 2-2 was a reasonable start. The bigger concern is how they got there. All 2-2 starts aren’t the same. If we would have squeaked by with last second FG against LV and Car and got blown out by Pitt and KC we would feel differently about our 2-2 record. The issue for me is that this offense has done nothing outside of 2 big runs vs LV and 1 big run and a busted coverage in the first half vs Carolina. We basically have the same points for as Denver and Cleveland, and Carolina, NYJ, LV, Pittsburgh and Chicago have more. Herbert doesn’t even have a 200 yd game yet. That’s ridiculous. If this is the offense they had in mind, we should have traded Herbert for picks and we could have drafted 2 more OL and signed Joe fucking Flacco to run it for a fraction of the cost. We don’t need a 262 mil game manager. I mean if we are going to continue to lose to the good teams bring Kellen Moore back. At least the losses were exciting. Nothing worse than losing in boring fashion.
On the flip side, I couldn’t be any more impressed with Minter. The defense is fantastic. Imagine this defense 2 years ago? The problem is, when only one half of the team is good, the other half starts wearing down and getting pissed. That’s when the problems occur. It’s still only week four, but anybody that has watched football for a while knows this offense sucks, and you can’t blame the injuries. It’s been dogshit since second half at Carolina. KC was down Pacheco and lost Rice in the game, did they look inept? When you build a team to only play one way, it’s easy to defend. Stop Dobbins (Can’t even say the running game b/c Gus looks terrible) and how are we going to beat you? Lets see if 2 weeks off gets it tightened up. If not it’s another 13 games of 3 yards and a cloud of dust. Exciting!!
“ If this is the offense they had in mind, we should have traded Herbert for picks and we could have drafted 2 more OL and signed Joe fucking Flacco to run it for a fraction of the cost“
This is not the offense they want to run or will run but when you combine a sieve-like O line with an immobile QB you are very limited in what you can do. That is the story of the last six quarters. I have no real criticism of the 10 quarters before that.
If they run the ball like they did the first 10 quarters the pass game will open up and they will start scoring 30+ per game. But if they return to a pass first predictable 35-40 drop backs per game they will continue to lose like the previous years.
@gbgh I disagree. This is exactly the offense they want to run, because it was the same offense once week 1 when everyone was healthy. You don’t hire Greg Roman, draft an OT at #5, bring in a C and 2 RB that know your scheme and then sign pass blocking TE’s if you desire a more wide open offense. Nobody said you have to pass 50 times a game. You can have a strong run game AND an explosive passing attack. They don’t have to be mutually exclusive. Justin Herbert + Greg Roman = Mark Sanchez.
They haven’t had a decent running game in years. This is the first time in a long time-certainly in Herbert’s reign-when the run game shows signs of life. If they can shore up their O line woes you will see them run effectively and throw down the field. The last eight quarters have been with an immobile QB and the last six have added a struggling O line. This is not who they are or who they will be if they get healthy on the O line.
If you are going to complain about a too conservative game plan it has to be the Raiders game which they won. At Carolina they had the game in hand early and should have run in the second half to shorten the game and close it out. Who cares about stats.
The problem yesterday was virtually no time for Herbert to throw and no run game at all. That is O line combined with an immobile QB playing a very good D. Not scheme or playcalling IMO. They tried to throw plenty and could not convert. But patience is the order of the day. The passing game will improve dramatically as the season wears on and the O line settles down.
So still pissed about yesterday’s game. Lost my voice too. BTW, to every Chiefs fan who celebrated Henley going down injured by doing their stupid chant while players were on a knee, I hope you suffer a flat tire a week for the rest of your lives.
I know the deck was stacked against team with injuries, but we had it!
I am having trouble wrapping my head around the fact the team has the worst passing offense after 4 weeks. I mean, I’m all for having a strong running game, but the passing schemes have to change. To make matters worse, the running offense has been brutal the last 2 weeks.
I get the injuries really changed things this week, but the running game wasn’t working in the first half at PIT, either.
Roman and Harbaugh better figure something out over the bye week because it would be criminal to finish the year in the bottom 5 passing offenses with Herbie. I mean, come on Roman, I know you love the run, but you have Justin Freakin’ Herbert!
I thought they played well in the first half against Pittsburgh and absent the Slater injury I think they would have won the game going away. The mistake made by Harbaugh was moving Pipkins to left tackle. That should have been Salyer. Once Herbert got hurt and Heinicke came in the OL fell completely apart. Pipkins was awful at LT and with Salyer at RG, he could not handle the inside push by the interior PIt d line. What they need to fix to run any kind of a decent offense is their backup OL players need to be serviceable. This is not essentially a scheme problem imo. It is largely a personnel problem.
The same was true yesterday. The OL got no push to run the ball and could not pass protect adequately especially on the inside against Chris Jones.
Say what you will but Popper has valid points here. IMO, Herbert has been kept on the shelf too much. I’m not advocating that the team relies on him carrying the load every game, but right now he’s a weapon that isn’t being used effectively.
Gus Edwards isn’t being productive. Where is Vidal?
The WR’s aren’t getting great separation. Perhaps there are some scheme changes to help here?
The IOL is allowing too much pressure. Again….there are ways to mitigate this. I’ve seen flashes of it (1st quarter vs KC). Why go away from that? Yes, a possibly big gainer via TE screen was blown up in the 4th Q….but that was one of the only screens attempted in the second half after success early.
Two things need to happen, IMO, beyond getting healthy. Hortiz needs to be beating the bushes for a better answer at center. This may not come to fruition but the position must be addressed for next season. Bozeman is not the answer, nor do I see Pipkins as a starter. And Roman needs to drastically improve his second half adjustments. Balance is fine….when it works. So far it only has vs weaker opponents.
Again….I’m not panicked nor particularly upset. I am speculative regarding Roman.
@buck-melanoma I really believe this past game was the game where you would’ve started seeing more downfield shots & a more productive passing game. But problem is Herbert was playing on one leg. And both Tackles were out too. So they had to adjust their game plan.
Regarding your point about Center, I was very skeptical about signing Bozeman from the day it happened. His pass blocking has been sub par in his career so far. So many other needs that they didn’t get the address the position in the draft. I fully expect them to do so this upcoming draft.
Regarding your point about WR, I’m happy with the development of Ladd & QJ. QJ hasn’t dropped a pass all season. Ladd is as good as advertised. He’s fast & explosive. They need to continue to build on this momentum. I’m not too sure about how much separation they’re creating but I can say that they haven’t been dropping any balls when the ball does come their way, which is encouraging.
@lfg_boltz yes, Herbert was basically on one leg the last 2 games. What about the first 2? Sure, they were wins….but why are we not utilizing this great talent that Harbaugh keeps hyping more? I don’t want to see Herbert the game manager. I want to see Herbert the upper tier QB. I don’t think that’s going to cost wins.
Roman has a lot to prove to me. So far I’m seeing signs of the misgivings others expressed regarding his play calling.
@buck-melanoma What you’re suggesting makes sense. But here are my thoughts about your concerns:
Aside from being matchup based, in the first two games it was about forming an identity. And situationally the way the game flow went in both games it didn’t require Herbert to do much. Another point is that Herbert missed a lot of camp due to his plantar fascia. I’m sure this played into it as well.
They’re gonna continue to run it. But there will also be games where it’s on Herbert to sling it. I thought that would be the Chiefs game. But circumstances didn’t allow it.
I agree with you in that they need to utilize his Herbert’s talents more, but I’m confident we’ll start to see it more as the season moves on. But it’ll be game plan specific.
@lfg_boltz my confidence in the passing game becoming more prominent and productive is in wait and see mode.
I guess Popper can have it both ways. Herbert shouldn’t play and he is being underutilized but it seems to me him playing has impacted his ability to evade pressure and throw down the field. This severely limits what he can do and Roman can call.
I am not saying the playcalling couldn’t have been better. It could have been especially as you mention with screens and quick passes like that crosser to McConkey but down the field was not there. Not enough time
I also don’t think in either of the last two games both against top 5 defenses that this team even healthy was going to score a ton of points or run it down their throat. Combine that with the injuries and lack of even passable depth to fill in after Salyer at LT and Pipkins at RT and you get what we got.
Where I think we all agree is the IOL play. You have been on this since Harbaugh and Hortiz came in about a quality center. Bozeman is terrible in pass pro and Mustipher needs to go back on the street. Even Pipkins at RG is highly suspect.
Maybe you can scheme around a sieve coming up the center of the line every play but not with Herbert with a high ankle sprain mobility. This type of pressure even with a healthy QB is the hardest to overcome. The more you leave in guys to help the more guys rush.
Maybe if the interior line is going to be this awful and while Herbert lacks mobility they should bring in Heinicke who has much more mobility. I think the team might have better success if Heinicke is able to run a bit and scramble to keep the D from absolutely teeing off on passing down as the Steelers did in the second half and the Chiefs did for 3 quarters.
Not an easy problem to solve IMO.
Not trying to be the turd in the punch bowl here, but assuming that we’re going to “get healthy” anytime soon is wildly optimistic.
The injuries to our starting tackles and quarterback – strained (or worse) pec muscle, sprained MCL, and high ankle sprain – are all lingering and easily aggravated or re-injured. We’re not out of the woods by a long shot.
We may be looking at a patchwork o-line trying to protect a gimpy QB for the foreseeable future. From what I’ve seen the last six quarters, I’m somewhat less than confident that Roman can scheme around this in any meaningful way. Hoping for the best.
Many of us in this group predicted that Davante Adams would become available by around week 5 of the season. That time is finally here.
How are we feeling about trading for him? I would absolutely love it.
@lfg_boltz Doubt it would ever happen. The price to trade him in season, in division, would be astronomical. I would rather sign Tee Higgins in the offseason or go for a Rd1 WR.
@lfg_boltz I would be OK with Cooper, but I don’t think Cleveland is bailing in the season just yet
@lfg_boltz Not at Adams’ current contract w/ ~$17 mil base salary due this season and $35.6 mil due in 2025 and $36.6 mil due in 2026. Yes, if Adams would agree for a restructured contract, but I doubt Hortiz & Co. would be interested. I don’t think they value the position that high for such high of a priority, but this team definitely needs a weapon at WR, currently there is none.
@tui1hit I would love the idea of having Davante on this team. But you’re right…the numbers have to work out. Another viable option to me is Amari Cooper. Much less expensive & an impact player at the WR position.
@tui1hit I agree with you that I don’t want the Chargers to trade for Adams, and I don’t think they will, but there are some things worth noting.
1. Adams’ 2024 cap hit for a team acquiring him this season, if acquired this week, would be limited to 13/18 of his salary and 14/18 of his game roster bonuses. For sake of argument, call it ~$13M, not $17M.
2. A team that acquires Adams owes him nothing beyond 2024. So that team could simply rent him for 2024, or it could work with him to restructure his contract to more favorable terms for 2025 (and beyond?). I very strongly doubt there is any NFL team that will accept a $35M cap hit for Adams in 2025 and beyond.
@buck-melanoma lol. That’ll be addressed in the draft. Unfortunately I don’t see there being any viable solution at that position in-season.
@lfg_boltz I wish that weren’t the case but alas, you’re almost certainly correct.
I’m just going to say this. Herbert had a phenomenal rookie and sophomore year playing behind a putrid OLine. I can’t accept Herbert is one of the worst rated passers in the NFL this season and simply chalk it up to poor OLine play. He’s averaging the fewest pass attempts league wide.
Roman better fix this coming out of the bye week, or Harbaugh needs to empower Marcus Brady and/or Marc Tresman to take over on passing down situations. Because there’s no universe where Herbie should be bottom of the league in passing stats, even in a run-centric offense.
I’m all for a solid running game. We haven’t had that for years or, for that matter, the last two games. But turning your elite QB into a bottom-of-the-barrel passer is simply not acceptable. This team is not going to have long-term success going down this road.
On a different note, through 4 games, Minter is the man. I, and I think many others, had concerns about the D given recent history and the personnel. But man, that D is legit!!!
Was at the game and sat in front of the kid who takes his jersey off and waves it in the 4th Q. Unfortunately, I think I blocked his view on a lot of the big plays but did my best to give him a view of the field. His sister and parents were awesome. High 5s through much of the game, except the last 6 minutes or so of the 4th Q.
Tough loss to stomach, given the Chiefs were fit to be had. FTC
@unclejammsarmy I agree with you that its weird to see Herbert at the bottom of the passing stat leaders, but in the first two games there was no reason for him to throw much more. Why air it out when its not needed?
Then he’s been injured for two games and the O-line depleted.
Difficult to have a fair assessment. My biggest gripe right now is not in the stats, but in their approach to the blitzes and aggressive defenses we’ve seen with the Steelers and Chiefs. It’s not that they need to air out with deep balls, especially with Herbert having almost zero time in the pocket, but they need to establish quicker outlets and short crossing routes and use more motion to their advantage. Just lining up in 12 personnel with 3 guys running routes to the sticks and no quick outlet option is not going to cut it.
@blue-beers agreed on this. While it definitely is strange to see him near the bottom, there’s a legitimate reason for it. Basically everything you mentioned above sums it up nicely. And that small 4 game sample size skews the stats dramatically one direction or the other. I fully expect his passing yards to spike as the season goes on. But even then, I don’t expect Herbert to be anywhere near the top given the run-first mentality Harbaugh/Roman have brought. My guess is he’ll end up somewhere in the middle of the pack in total passing yards for the season. If it translates to wins so be it. If it doesn’t, they’ll need to start tweaking some things again.
And after 4 games it does seem that Herbert has some reliable pass catchers now in Ladd & QJ. Maybe it’s still a little too early to say that though.
One other thing. The plays on offense have to get in earlier. Herbert is lining up the O with 9 seconds far, far too often this whole season. No chance to check out of the play most of the time. That’s just ridiculous and you saw Herbert’s frustration about it after a sack on Sunday. Team has had to take TOs to deal with this problem. Figure this ish out guys.
@buck-melanoma It probably doesn’t help having a defensive tackle on the field 1/3 of the time. I’m not really understanding this Matlock experiment. A few snaps, sure? But this seems ridiculous and is not putting the best 11 players on the field.
@blue-beers unless he’s helping slow down the interior rush (which I’m not seeing), it’s eluding me what he IS doing of any importance.
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