We’ve just released Episode 105 of the Thunder Down Under Chargers Podcast.
Our synopsis is below:
“Hello Darkness My Old Friend…” The #Boltfam is reeling after the Chargers’ devastating 32-12 Wild Card loss to the Texans. Justin Herbert’s uncharacteristic 4-INT game leaves fans questioning the team’s trajectory under Jim Harbaugh. Can the Bolts bounce back stronger in 2025? Tune in as we dissect the toughest game of the season, analyse what went wrong, and discuss the future of the Chargers. Don’t miss it!ad for this exciting team. Don’t miss it!
You can also listen on Spotify below (or download on audio wherever you like to listen to podcasts):
As always, you can support us by doing any or all of the following:
– Rec’ing this post and leaving any thoughts/feedback you have in the comments section below.
– Following us on Twitter (and ‘liking’ our tweets) at @TDU_Chargers, or individually, at @TDU_Alister, @TDU_Jack and @TDU_Andy.
– ‘Subscribing’ to our YouTube channel, clicking the ‘Like’ button for today’s episode, and engaging with us in the comments section.
– Giving us a rating and leaving a review on the Thunder Down Under Podcast page on Apple Podcasts (and ‘subscribing’).
– Spreading the good word to all of your awesome Chargers friends and family and encouraging them to listen to our show (and engage with us on social media).
Hope you enjoy the episode! Thanks so much for listening 🙂
Alister (@TDU_Alister)
In fairness, 5 games is not a large sample size, and he had Huntley in 1 game instead of Jackson.
I’m not thrilled about Roman, but he certainly wasn’t solely responsible for the Chargers’ poor offensive performance last week. He is accountable for it and no doubt significantly contributed to it, but he also didn’t throw 4 interceptions, drop passes, etc.
Great pod. I could tell the frustration all of your faces throughout. Totally warranted and agonizing. The stat about Romans playoff point output his last five games is startling and with good QBs (64 points in 5 games – yikes). As you pointed out its where you’ll see the best teams most of the time so need to bring in some fresh blood to complement like Kev suggested. Hes obviously not going anywhere but I liked Jacks thoughts around a six game trial. Thats enough time to demonstrate some willingness to adapt and use an upgraded roster to the best of its abilities. Obviously SOS will play a part in that analysis. I dont think Harbaugh will operate this way but its a good amount of time to give him.
I do wonder as you did if Harbaughs conservatism play will carry over to year 2. It was completely understandable this year. This year was always a throw away for me. If we were 5-12 I would have been worried but any improvement gives me confidence and we got that. Hortiz made some magical moves to get us there as well. I have confidence in H & H.
Herbert needs to gain confidence and be supported. One of the glaring holes this year was a lack of RB pass catcher. Shocked the front office overlooked that as Herbert has used the Ekelers of the world as a safety net for the better part of his entire career. Need to find that guy in the offseason. Surely they are out there (and also have some running ability)
Onward and upward.
Sidenote: Pulling for DET/BUF SB – one of those cities needs some love
I watched Harbaugh and Hortiz’s press conference yesterday, and Harbaugh’s comment about wanting to bring every coach back in 2025 didn’t surprise me, and it didn’t sound like coach speak either. Naturally, there may be some attrition, but I doubt much ‘fresh blood’ will be brought in.
This year’s draft class is apparently a strong one for RBs. Greg Roman’s track record doesn’t fill me with confidence that Herbert will ever find a true safety net at that position while he’s the OC. Roman tends to prefer bringing the RB in to help with pass protection and using the Wing TE or FB (if anything) as an outlet coming across the formation or running to the flats. Not utilising RB wheels or finding a RB/WR hybrid who can run some routes from the slot is a travesty when you see how Ben Johnson, Joe Brady, and other creative OCs are murdering opposition Defenses with that style of player. *Sigh*.
Good shoutout re DET/BUF. I totally agree. Although I also have a soft spot for Baltimore, and my younger brother is a mad Eagles fan (believe it or not) so I wouldn’t hate it if they won. He managed to attend PHI v GB in person last week. He’s in the USA with his wife for a holiday and managed to convince her to go to the game – they had a great time.
Really I don’t care who wins the SB as long as it’s not those Chiefs again!
Listened to the pod today and I agree with the points on Roman, the team preparation and the questions regarding playoff Herbert. I agree with Jack that Roman will be back, for a sense of continuity, but there is still a real lack of faith going forward. Buck and I have been echoing the same sentiment all year that he was stubborn to make players fit his system and not adjusting the offense to what he had for optimal performance consistently. I have to say that after seeing the clips TDU provided and re watching the game, Herbert was really hamstrung by lack of play calling, OL play and lack of players stepping up to make plays. He is not blameless because I thought there were opportunities for him to use his legs to make plays and really take over the game with his sheer will and athleticism. After all, he performed that way in his final Rose Bowl with Oregon, so we know he has the aptitude for it. I also would not convict him yet as a playoff bust. He has only had two playoff opportunities and he didn’t play badly against Jacksonville, he was just not dynamic. It does begin to raise the question of whether the playoff stage is to big, but I do not think he has had a big enough sample size or ample help around him to make any declarations on him. Looking forward to the offseason shows and content.
@evolz3737
Tau837 has often said, is it’s the same excuse that I (and others) used for Brandon Staley after Yr 1. And his Defense obviously never materialised into a good Defense.
Thanks Erick! Agree with your comments about Herbert. Credit to the Texans, who managed to close off most of Herbert’s escape lanes, but he never decisively took off within 2 seconds of the snap, and once it was apparent that his receivers weren’t creating separation quickly or being schemed open, it would have been nice to see him take the bull by the horns in the second half and not stand in the pocket like a lame duck. I do think that’s largely a reflection of coaching. When Harbaugh and Roman consisntely preach the importance of protecting the football, and not turning it over, it’s hardly creating an environment where the QB feels comfortable saying to himself, “F*** this playcall, if I like this look pre-snap, I’m taking off with my legs here“.
The only real “out” for Greg Roman is if the Offense dominates next year, and we find a way to agree that Yr 1 was about ‘establishing Harbaugh’s preferred scheme’ for the players who’ll be around long-term, and the following years were about perfecting it and bringing in players who suited that scheme. The problem with this excuse, as
So the simplest explanation – Greg Roman just isn’t a very good coach or playcaller for the modern NFL – might be the best explanation for this season’s troubles on Offense…
Given that Roman is going to be on the staff in 2025, I wonder what changes will be made to his staff and schemes. A few ideas (which I wrote a bit about in another thread):
Andy Bischoff (running game coordinator, TE coach) has been a TE coach in the league for a long time. Andy made chicken salad out of a chicken shit TE roster. You could argue he did the exact opposite with the RB group. I think a change needs to be made here, with a more proven RB coach.
Kiel McDonald (RB Coach): Was the RB coach at USC. Another guy with limited experience and no ties to Harbaugh. N
Marcus Brady (passing game coordinator) has no history with Roman/Harbaugh (that I could find). He worked with Steichen in Philadelphia for the last 2 years, and has been a (not very successful) OC in the league. Not sure if he’s a fit.
Mike Devlin (OL coach): A dude that has been coaching OL for a long time, he was the OL coach for the Ravens 22-23. Not super-impressed with what was done this year. The inability to adjust to the stunts defenses were throwing at the interior is pretty damning. John let him go for a reason. I think an upgrade here may help.
I think guys like Shane Day (Herbert had a very good season learning yet another offensive system) and Sanjay Lal (who made amazing progress with Davis & QJ) are part of the solution. My hope is that they bring in more “modern NFL” minds onto the staff and integrate that into the physical style of offense Harbaugh wants to play
Who do you think will stay/go from the staff? Who do you think SHOULD go from the staff?
I think someone needs to be held accountable for the lack of adjustments DCs were throwing at the OL. Since we’re all resigned to Roman coming back, I think the most reasonable head to mount on a spike is Devlin. Don’t know much about him, but I can’t think of a player on the OL that improved in 2024. I also think that the one position group that consistently failed in big games was the OL.
I think a great OL coach is a key component of making the vision of what Harbaugh wants the Chargers offense to be become reality. In spite of having 3 1st round picks, the OL was the position group defenses feasted on all year.
From week 1 vs. the Raiders all the way through the playoffs, DL stunts disrupted the Chargers offense. Roman had no answers for what they had to know was coming. Fucking frustrating. Something needs to change. If it’s not Roman, then Devlin is the most logical change.
1. Is Harbaugh to old school/hard headed to be able to adapt if this style proves in a year or two to not be effective and just continuing to only do what he knows has worked in the past?
2. Will he continue to tailor the roster only to this approach, making the ability to pivot difficult without once again churning the roster to fit a new style, and will he even decide to coach long enough to see that change through?
For some reason, (recent health issues included) I don’t have the feeling that this is a decade long coaching endeavor for him here. I have the feeling this will only be a 3-5 year ramp up to win a SB, so IMO, there is little room for a costly mistake like having the wrong offensive scheme in place to get to where we all want to be, and we are already down one year of that tenure.
That is EXACTLY what Harbaugh wants here.
After completely refreshing the RB room, there is still a gaping hole for an RB that can catch. I don’t mind bringing Dobbins back, but he’s not a threat out of the backfield. I also read that his knees have been operated on 6 times. Not sure you want to depend on his health in 2025. The Chargers need to draft an RB in the middle rounds.
Expecting QJ to learn how to catch the football and be anything more than WR3 is not a good plan. The Chargers need to add an WR2 either early in the draft or through FA. Not sure the Chargers will (or should) pay the big bucks for Higgins, but Cooper or Hopkins could bring a lot to the 2025 team.
I think a quality center that can read defenses and call protections will significantly improve the guard play. There’s not a lot of FA options, so this is likely a position that needs to be addressed in the draft. Another year of watching Bozman and Johnson block air while dudes wiz by them will not help my 2025 resolution to drink less
Interesting point I just looked up. Both QJ and Jalen Reagor were pick #21 in their drafts. The Eagles cut Reagor after 2 years – We’re all assuming QJ is on the team in 2025, and I still think that’s likely. His cap hit is $3.9 vs. $8.4M to cut him. So, while I think it’s unlikely, its not impossible to cut his inconsistent, football bobbling ass.
Random Scout: “Man this guy flashes some on tape and he’s got some speed, but he cant catch contested balls, he attempts to body catch everything and overall his hands are bad leading to drops. I’m not sure he’s the pick.
Kellen Moore: “Even though they are completely different skill sets and talents, I can turn him into CeeDee Lamb.”
Telesco: “Plus he’s tall!! Sold!!”
I do think QJ is on the 2025 Chargers. If he continues to bobble/drop passes in key situations and struggle to get separation, I think it’s likely the team moves on from him in 2026.
I recognize that it is not impossible, but IMO there is a 100% chance he is on the 2025 opening roster barring injury or something unexpected (retirement, suspension, etc.).
I think the other issue keeping QJ on the roster is that the Chargers do not have a lot of options at the position. I think Palmer is gone. Reagor is a FA. Fehoko (who will be 28) is a FA. Chark (who will be 29) is a FA. Dez Fitzpatrick (who will also be 29) is an RFA. Jaylen Johnson (who went to the same high school my daughter is attending) was a UDFA and I believe is a RFA.
So, going into the 2025 season, the receiver depth chart looks something like this:
McConkey
QJ
Davis
Rice
One or more of the FAs may be back to fill out the bottom of the roster, but the Chargers clearly need a WR2. Lots of noise around Higgins, but I’m not sure this front office is going to throw the cash necessary to sign Tee. I think a vet like Cooper or Hopkins would add a lot to this roster. Both should be relatively affordable. There’s also a lot of depth in this WR class, so hopefully Hortiz can find one or more contributors in the mid-late rounds. My guess/wish for the 25 WR room:
McConkey
Cooper/Hopkins/Vet FA
QJ
Draft pick
Davis
Rice/Fehoko/Reagor/Draft pick
Maybe slightly better, but I don’t want Cooper either. He will be 31 in June, and his play fell off this season.
Reasons the Chargers should seriously consider giving Higgins the contract it would take to get him if the Bengals actually allow him to hit the market:
Higgins is also the best WR available, considerably better than Hopkins and Cooper — PFF’s 7th highest graded WR this season. Having seen what Herbert can do with Allen, Williams, and now McConkey, imagine what he can do with Higgins, who is like a better version of Williams.
Higgins just turned 26 yesterday. Signing him this offseason guarantees the Chargers they will not have to worry about WR1/2 for at least 3 years, barring injury. And possibly 4-5 years if they keep McConkey beyond his rookie contract. That roster certainty is worth a lot.
Related, they would not have to even really consider taking a WR with their top draft picks this season, which would free them up to focus on other positions with good talent in this draft, where they need and can draft starters.
Higgins has also shown aptitude as a run blocker, with two seasons with 66-67 PFF grades. There is reason to believe he would be better at this than most WRs, including Hopkins and Cooper.
I doubt this will happen, because Higgins might not even reach the market, and, as you said, not sure Hortiz-Harbaugh will value him enough to invest the cap space it would take in WR1/2.
Agree with your points on Hopkins. He’s not the perfect solution. He did have an overall PFF grade of 78.6 in 2024, with 610 yards and 5 TDs. Cooper is also not a perfect solution. My thought was that adding a low-ish cost vet would help the very young WR room.
The other options are Chris Goodwin (who I think would fit well with this team/staff), Marquise Brown or bringing Keenan back. I believe all three are hurt? Not sure if any are interested in coming back to the Chargers on a team-friendly deal.
For example, Godwin is a great player but he excels in the slot and his best route tree is kind of redundant to McConkey IMO. Same with guys like Slayton, Osborn, Moore, Cooks, etc.. Cooks could be used in multiple roles but all of his best football was out of the slot. I’m not saying you always need McConkey in the slot, but I do think you want either McConkey or Johnston in the slot and they need to bring in a bigger outside X receiver.
Higgins makes the most sense for sure. Hopkins or Cooper can help for a year but they’re definitely old and it would have to be a short-term deal. I’d prefer Hopkins over Cooper personally if they could get him on a 1-year deal and then there are a lot of good “X” receivers in free agency next year.
Marquise Brown isn’t a prototypical X, but Roman used him that way in what turned out to be Brown’s best professional season. Unfortunately he’s lost a step and constantly injury prone. Seems like that would be a big gamble but maybe bring him if he’s cheap enough.
One player I would highlight that I think would make a lot of sense if they can’t get Higgins is Nick Westbrook-Ikhine. He is still young and ascending and has flashed the big play ability you want to see out of a typical X receiver. He’s not an athletic freak (kind of a poor man’s Mike Williams in measurables), but he’s shown the ability to get open and some prowess in the Red Zone. Certainly he’d benefit from better QB play as well.
Of course, the draft is always an option as well, but I’m certain they’ll make at least 1 addition to the WR corps through FA.
The Chargers averaged 136 yards per game rushing in their wins. They averaged just 62 yards per game in their losses with most of those being in the 5- – 60ish yard range. I’m sure that is a statistic that is going to be front and center for Harbaugh & Co this offseason.
As much as I wanted the Bolts to win the wild card game so they can take out those shit Chiefs in the divisional, the silver lining in all this is we don’t have to see the TDU crew naked after such a win over KC.
I think the clips you posted here are fuel for anyone who thinks Roman is the right guy moving forward. The play calls, scheme and execution might have been the worst of the season, when the best was needed. Everyone got giddy when he looked great against the dregs, but when he was pitted against another good staff in a critical game, he was soundly outmatched, and failed to adjust. Roster limitations can always be used as a factor, but continuing to put the players you have had for a whole season in situations they are not physically equipped for is inexcusable. I will continue to say it until I am proven wrong, the Ravens and Jim’s own brother, jettisoned him for Monken and the offense has been historic the last few seasons. That’s all the proof I need. He is not the fit for Herbert. His best seasons have come from spreading the field and making the route concepts be read from low to high. Forcing everything into condensed formations with minimal spacing, with no running game to at least succeed from it, is no way to play offense. There is no creativity to the offense. It is very telegraphed. Lets line up in heavy personnel unbalance to one side and run it that way, or lets put Alt and Slater next to each other in a short yardage situation and run it behind them. Not to mention I am exhausted watching Fisk and Matlock being asked to block DE and OLB. With an OL that has a tendency to get overrun, why not slow down the other teams aggression with some screens or RB routes out of the backfield? Some people want to see him with better personnel, but I’ve seen enough. Not the QB for Herbert. Square peg, round hole.
I’ve been saying it….you go to battle with the army you have, not the one you want. He seldom adjusted to the players’ best skill sets. John knew.
@evolz3737
I think these are all fair comments. The only creativity I saw from Greg Roman on the All-22 is the use of ‘dirty bunches’ (which have become a league-wide craze this year: to spring McConkey open occasionally.
Harbaugh will not fire Greg Roman, so he”get a chance to show us what his Offense looks like in 2025 with – hopefully, there are no guarantees – better personnel.
I generally prefer to fire people a year too late, than a year too early, because I believe in the power of humans to evolve and improve.
That being said, Greg Roman genuinely could not have performed any worse on Saturday. If you told me that Harbaugh could replace him with a young playcaller from the Shanahan or McVay tree, I would be interested. But I don’t think that’s the type of playcaller Harbaugh would be interested in because he believes in old school, power football, and playing in jumbo packages with unbalanced formations. That’s been his modus operandi for so long. And with Defenses around the League still generally liking to live in Nickel as their Base, I think he’ll believe in building on the 11-win season playing his style of football, with better personnel on the Offense.
So it’ll be another year of Roman, and we’ll get to see if it benefits Herbert to have a second year in that system; and if, with a better OL/skill players, guys have a better time getting open than they did on Saturday.
11 wins was great. We beat most of the teams we should. But, like you, I’m not certain run-centric offenses are best suited for today’s NFL. Productive, sure, but when you have a QB as gifted as Herbert I think it’s more pass to set up the run. Not sure that’s gonna be the way they go though. If it’s run centric then invest in making it work. Right now the offensive identity under Roman against playoff caliber teams is MIA….and I don’t think that’s all on the roster.
Look what Lamar has been doing since big brother John said goodbye to Greg. The proof is there to see.
Hey Stormcloud. I haven’t caught up on all the posting since Wild Card Round and the aftermath. I’ll spend tomorrow doing that.
If you listen to this week’s show, you’ll hear our views about everything to do with the game, including Herbert’s performance, the playcalling, the coaching, and much more.
Please feel free to share your opinions below and tell us anything you agree or disagree with from the show.
It was a dreadful conclusion to an otherwise positive season. Jack’s #TeachableMoment hopefully provides some solace to you all. It did for me!
After the Rams won today, the Chargers will Pick at 1.22 in the 2025 NFL Draft: https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878741110757142841
Posting the Coach 217;s Film clips from Wild Card Round that I thought were important or interesting:
Clip #1 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878929563205652845
Clip #2 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878933554916364721 (see comments for discussion of how much of this performance was Herbert 217;s fault)
Clip #3 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878939406037569678
Clip #4 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878940752136622514
Clip #5 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878942007781167544
Clip #6 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878943580812972297
Clip #7 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878947546397393354
Clip #8 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878950779505234425
Clip #9 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878971648227119132
Clip #1 0 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878977548039946700
Clip #1 1 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878988193707782149
Clip #1 2 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878980991483797611
Clip #1 3 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878993680838852671
Clip #1 4 : https://twitter.com/TDU_Chargers/status/1878995077797945569