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EV and I were just discussing Zont a bit earlier and then this article popped up. I don’t expect him back, don’t think he’s a particularly good fit for Minter’s D, but wish him well and hope he gets us a nice comp pick.
6’4 4/4″….that’s 6’5″, right? lol
I’m not familiar with this kid. Anyone?
@buck-melanoma Thomas does a pretty good breakdown in this thread.
https://twitter.com/BoltsDraftTalk/status/1878621869517291619?t=9GgnFSqDJZ2eYOVIWYtOYw&s=09
Arroyo has made some highlights through 1v1’s at the Senior Bowl, because he is fast and a good route runner.
@buck-melanoma Buck I watched a few games of Miami this year and TBH they didn’t use him much and his overall stats bear that out. So the question for evaluators going forward will be balancing his overall draft stock with potential vs production. Was his lack of stats more a convention of the offense? Did his skill set not mesh with the scheme? Was he easily taken out by the opposing DC? Was his QB just not getting him the ball?
Tough call for me. I tend to value production more than traits, because if you are truly a stud, coaches will find ways to get you the ball. Considering Fisk and Smartt are both back that leaves us with 1 TE opening. With the offense having a glaring hole for a receiving weapon at TE, I would rather draft a bona fide #1 than take a traits guy that can develop unless we only keep one of Fisk or Smartt.
I still like Gesicki as a short term FA option (2yr, 5M?) as insurance going into the draft. At the very least it gives us an option if we miss the top TE in the draft.
@evolz3737 I’m still in on our TE1 coming in the first round….IF either of the top 2 are still available. But also thinking contingencies.
@buck-melanoma It’s still early for me in the process and I won’t have a better feel for our board until after first wave of FA, but if the draft were today, I’m leaning Edge Rd1
@evolz3737 that, for me, depends on what they do re: Bosa and Mack.
My biggest concern about spending draft capital on TE1 is Roman. Will he know how to use one productively?
@buck-melanoma I think that’s a little irrational in the sense that TE1 is almost always going to be on the field for us; that having an actual threat at the position will help others out and that Herbert is the primary beneficiary of and has shown a willingness to use his TEs. The TE route tree effects such a different part of the field for the Defense and we need that type of threat because Roman won’t be here for another season if he can’t take advantage of this TE class.
I also saw something posted elsewhere that was in effect: Do you trust Minter to make a quality Defense with lesser Draft Capital and FA or do you trust Roman to make a quality Offense with lesser Draft Capital and FA?
@duck07 I am all for Herbert having a stud TE. I remain skeptical of Roman’s play calling and that’s not changing until he proves he can produce against the better teams.
Based on the data today, with Roman and Minter as Chargers coaches, I absolutely think Minter can do more with less.
@buck-melanoma Keep in mind we’d also draft someone who’d be with the team for 4 years whereas Roman is clearly year-to-year from here out.
@duck07 I’m in for drafting TE1. Just voicing concerns about Roman which I think are warranted. It wouldn’t prevent me from taking either of the top 2 if they’re there at 1.22.
In 4 years in Roman’s offense in Baltimore, Mark Andrews had 302 receptions, 3761 receiving yards, and 31 receiving TDs. He made the Pro Bowl 3 times and 1st team All Pro once. That production is second only to Kelce among TEs over that span (2019-2022).
I don’t think it should be much of a concern that Roman cannot effectively use a high quality pass catching TE1.
@tau837 until he proves it with the Chargers I’ll remain concerned. I clearly remember the 7 quarters with zero offensive points….only 2 from a safety and I think a pick 6?
So yes, past can be predictive but I want proof.
@buck-melanoma I get it, but your post I responded to questioned whether he knows how to use one. He clearly does know how.
In addition to Andrews, Roman had 2 productive seasons from TE Charles Clay in BUF with Tyrod as his QB, and he had 3 productive seasons from TE Vernon Davis in SF with Alex Smith and Kaepernick at QB. And Dissly just had by far his best receiving season this year in Roman’s offense.
Roman has issues, but productively using a TE is not one of them.
@bolt_dk that’s encouraging, I’m just not happy with Roman’s first season. He has work to do to win me over.
That doesn’t mean I don’t want to give Herbie weapons….I do!! Particularly a stud TE. I’m also going to be a skeptic regarding Roman until this offense produces well vs strong opponents.
@buck-melanoma Roman has probably been one of the most prolific user of TEs of any offensive coordinator in history. His entire offense in San Francisco days revolved around one possession receiver and V. Davis. Then in Baltimore, his offenses were very TE-centric. No question he knows how to use one. He turned Mark Andrews (3rd round pick) into a perennial pro bowl candidate.
I think Arroyo is an interesting pick he just doesn’t block that well. Mason Taylor probably in the same bucket. BUT, I don’t think Loveland is a great blocker either so not sure the gap is as big as people are saying right now. Warren is the only “complete” TE in this class IMO, which is why he’s the only TE I would consider in round 1.
@blue-beers as I told tau awhile back, Roman has to prove himself to me. Any offense that can go 7 consecutive quarters with no offensive points, with Justin Herbert at the helm, is suspect in my book. When Roman proves himself, I’ll back off this stance. To date he has not done that. Baltimore moved on from him for a reason.
@buck-melanoma Totally agree, not argument. I was just commenting on his history and ability to use a TE properly. I’m not worried about his ability to feature a TE if he has the right player.
@blue-beers you and tau are both likely right. I’m just gun shy….and currently taking the Missouri stance…lol
@evolz3737 Arroyo really had a good week by all accounts and he’s got quality film to suggest he’s TE-H #2 behind Fanin Jr. What I think makes him intriguing for others is that he weighed in over 250+ and still has great athleticism to think that in time he could become a fulltime Y.
I’m of the mind that neither Warren or Loveland are going to be available at 22 this year so that means who is available at 55 unless we’re able to trade down from 22. We’ve got Dissly under contract and he’s solid but not spectacular so putting Arroyo into that room would seem like a nice addition to me and we could still find a backup Y-TE later in the draft on Day 3.
I wouldn’t be shocked if we double-dipped this year at RB, TE, C/G, DT or Edge due to the depth and type of player skill-sets relative to those groups.
@duck07 Only problem with double dipping is we then have to cut either Smartt or Fisk. Fisk is an ERFA so he will be back. Personally, I don’t mind the double dip because I don’t think Smartt is that great and we can replace him with an upgraded longer term player.
@evolz3737 I think the Smartt/Fisk comes down to who that 2nd TE drafted would be in that scenario (Y or H) and that that player would compete to Practice Squad/Inactive one of Smartt/Fisk. Top of my head Dissly has 1 year left as it is and has a history of missing games so there’s rationale there.
I like Molden but I also like comp picks. So does Hortiz.
Now that Tee is franchised, Where do we focus our FA budget? Do we not go crazy this year and continue to add through the draft and reasonable FA contracts and save some $ for next offseason? Do we pivot to Adams or Kupp if released? The plot thickens…..
@blue-beers I think Adams will be released by the Jets. No draft picks needed, just cold hard cash!!
@evolz3737 That would be pretty compelling and if they had him and McConkey I wouldn’t even worry as much about TE.
@evolz3737 Also, if they can’t pull off a big trade, the “smaller” name player I would target is Nick Westbrook-Ikhine. I’m not saying he’d suddenly turn into a pro-bowler, but he can play the X position and has shown a knack for some big play potential and Red Zone prowess. I think he’d compliment McConkey nicely and then they can focus their other resources on offense on RB, TE and IOL.
Pre-Combine Popper musings. I know we’re all excited to watch Hortiz operate sans salary cap handcuffs. He’s already made a very good move re-signing Molden. I hope Mack, Ford, and Tart are re-signed. I’m less bullish on Fox and Dobbins….salary demands drive all of these negotiations, of course. I think Bosa is gone before the roster bonus is due.
@buck-melanoma I have hopes that Bosa realizes his true worth and agrees to terms that reflect that. I listened to Money Smith talk about how strange a dude he is and that he loves playing with Mack and for Harbaugh, also, that money may not be as motivating a factor for him, so we’ll see.
I’d like to see Dobbins back if for no other reason than without him the cupboard is bare. I understand the injury concerns and I get the idea of selling high, but without him it’s Vidal, Patterson, and FA/draft pick from there.
I’m wondering if they bring back both Tart and Ford. I’d like to see it, but they may re-sign only one and roll the dice with one plus whatever Egboigbe chooses to be, Ogbonnia, and likely a rookie.
We’ll know soon-ish, but not soon enough for me.
@smith I think Dobbins might be back just because the FA RB list is not that great. If it were up to me I would let him explore FA and see what he can get. I think we might have just gotten the best and healthiest season of his career, so I would rather walk away now. If it were up to me, I would rather sign a cheaper young vet like Emanuel Wilson or Elijah Mitchell and then double dip in the draft. Let them all fight it out in camp with Vidal and Gus on who stays on the active roster. Hell, if the new guys prove to be better than Gus, you could cut him or trade him for a late pick during camp to a team that might be hit with injuries at RB.
@evolz3737 God as my witness, I forgot Gus was on the team. Hope he can get cranked up for the coming season. But I agree that this a place to double dip in the draft. Every season there seems to be a late round flyer or two that has a solid rookie season at RB. Maybe this year it’s the Chargers’ turn to strike gold.
@smith Depends on what you mean by “late round”? In the last decade, there have only been two RBs drafted after the 5th that have been starting caliber (Chris Carson, Seahawks and Pacheco, Chiefs).
There’s been a couple of others drafted in the 6th (Khalil Herbert, Eli Mitchell) that have had their moments in a committee but nothing to get excited about.
Given that the Chargers are drafting near the end of each round, I don’t think they can afford to wait beyond the 4th round for a RB, and maybe even the 3rd. Especially considering the Chargers need a back who can actually contribute in the passing game. That was a MAJOR hole in the offense last year.
@blue-beers There are also the UDFAs of the past decade (CJ Anderson, Philip Lindsay, Thomas Rawls, James Robinson) who each had at least one good year. Planning on hitting its big with a UDFA is a terrible plan, Ekeler and Gates notwithstanding, so I get your point on grabbing a guy by at least round four.
It’ll be interesting to see how Hortiz/Harbaugh handle RB in FA and the draft. It was only a couple of years ago that everyone said you don’t spend draft capital on an RB That’s changed quickly
I think:
- Bosa and Pipkins should and will be gone
- Edwards should be gone, but not confident the team will do that… he could be allowed to stay and compete until the end for a 53 man roster spot
- Internal free agents Mack, Ford, Tart, Dobbins, Dye, Bozeman, Heinicke, Scott, Smartt, Fisk, Sarell, and Jefferson should and will be re-signed… and, if the price is right, Fulton also
- Multiple external premium free agents should be signed, like C Kelly, WR Adams (assuming he is released), IDL Milton Williams… doesn’t have to be those 3, but 3 of that caliber who immediately upgrade starting spots
- Others not mentioned should be allowed to walk
@tau837 Preparing for a TDU free agency show at the moment, and your list of suggestions here looks pretty good to me.
I haven’t watched any of the DTs in this draft class yet, but I thought I’d point out that Dan Jeremiah recently tweeted that he has 24 “potential starter” grades in this DT class compared to 12 “potential starter” grades that he gave out last year.
If it’s the deepest DT class in recent memory, I wonder how that will bear on any plan to sign both of Ford and Tart especially if Ford’s price tag starts getting out of control.
@alisterlloyd A few comments:
1. The Chargers have real knowledge about Ford, Tart, et al. They only have theoretical knowledge about draft picks who didn’t play for Harbaugh.
2. The Chargers top 3 IDL starters last season were Ford, Tart, and Fox, and they are all free agents. They have to sign at least 2 IDL players in free agency prior to the draft.
3. Harbaugh has said he wants to bring everyone back to the max extent possible. To me, bringing back Ford and Tart and not Fox generally fits what he has said… and it’s worth noting that the Chargers have generally done what he has said they would do so far.
4. On top of all of that, the Chargers have so much free cap space (especially if they cut Bosa and Pipkins, as I expect), they can spend on whatever they want.
Definitely agree with all of this Tau, the only thing that might bear a note is that Harbaugh’s version of coach-speak is habitually leaning overly optimistic.
He was really gassing up Joey, Mack, Allen, Mike, and others last year… before they made Joey and Mack take pay cuts and cut Allen for not doing so.
I don’t think it’s a bad thing at all – that’s just the coach we have and the form of coach speak that will be given to us. Wanting to bring everyone back and “competitors always welcome” basically means anything can happen.
And as we saw with Allen… he’ll continue the mantra even when a player leaves. “$23 million to play in Chicago, who’s got it better than him?”
That personality might not be for everyone but I like it 🤣
@alisterlloyd I would still sign back both if possible. You never know how the board falls and there could be better prospects at our selection in each round than the best DT prospect. Kind of like C last year. Deep, talented class but we came away with nothing. Having them back doesn’t prevent us from adding a DT if the option presents itself making the unit even stronger, but it prevents it from being a weakness if the draft doesn’t pan out. Same reason I would like a pass catching TE signed in FA (Gesicki) in case the draft doesn’t present us with one.
Zion moving to center is worth a try, if they don’t like him enough at LG. It looks like it will be a major focus this offseason. I think they will bring in competition and hopefully starting caliber players at guard and maybe at center.
I also believe the first draft pick will be a trench guy on OL (+ Warren) or DL, including EDGE. Let’s see who they bring back, so we can get a better picture of things.
@bolt_dk Zion to center feels like a reach to me. He struggles picking up stunts but he’d be asked to call the blocking assignments? I don’t see it.
I still think Joey’s gone unless he takes another significant cut. Obviously I want Mack back.
@buck-melanoma I listened to Poppers pod. Sure sounds like he thinks there’s a reasonable chance Bosa is reworked or pay cut to stay for another season or 2. If Mack comes back this would be the perfect scenario to draft Stewart. An extremely raw but talented player who would benefit of learning from 2 elite Edges and give us insurance in case they get hurt or are cut candidates next year.
@evolz3737 I’m not anti-Stewart but would be kind of weird to spend a 1st round pick on a guy who would be 4th on the depth chart in Year 1? If it was 2nd round or later I could see it more…
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