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Hey everyone -
Thought this was an interesting conversation on Twitter. Turns out Duke shares our concerns over the Chargers not addressing center in the last draft.
This isn't meant to be an indictment; as I've said previously, although I was dying for a true center upgrade, we weren't going to hit every position in Year One. The bigger concern or me will be whether we address it next offseason or not, when we've been able to get solid returns from nearly every position group other than IOL and TE.
Anyway, here you go:
https://twitter.com/BigDuke50/status/1855460117082178034
https://twitter.com/BigDuke50/status/1855598146849534125
https://twitter.com/BigDuke50/status/1855598195453133264
and some salt on the wound...
https://twitter.com/BigDuke50/status/1855685830691414096
I wanted Frazier BAD....over JPJ. Chaps my ass that the frigging Steelers got him.
This was my one gripe about the Chargers draft.
And these fools arguing with DUKE MANYWEATHER over this? Must be from BFTB...lol
Would have loved the addition of Frazier at the center position but the price to trade up for him would have been steep for another high or mid second-round pick while there were other positions of need. The team traded away picks 2.37 and 4.110 to NE for 2.34 for McConkey and 5.137 (Tarheeb Still). Unless, it was Frazier with the second-round pick (2.37) and no McConkey. Would Frazier have more of an impact to an offense than McConkey would? No body knows at this point. Is it easier to find an impact WR than an impact center? According to Ortiz, there continues to be more good WR’s coming out in the drafts now than before. Yet, McConkey was drafted over Frazier or any projected good centers in the draft. Who is more important to Herbert? A QB-friendly WR or better IOL protection? Would the team down the road regret this move or not trading away picks to move up for a center like Frazier?
While Frazier has played very well for the Steelers, McConkey has shown why the team moved up to get him. I believe Ortiz couldn't have executed the draft any better with the draft picks and tradeable or not players he had to work with.
Draft/Trade Options:
- Zach Frazier: rd 2 pk 51 (390 pt draft value) by the Steelers
- Ladd McConkey: rd 2, pk 34 (560 pt) from NE for Chargers’ 2.37 (530) & 4.110 (74)
- Jr Colson: rd 3, pk 69 (245)
- Eboigbe: rd 4, pk 105 (84)
- Tarheeb Still: rd 5, pk 137 (37) from NE
- Cam Hart: rd 5, pk 140 (36)
- Kimani Vidal: rd 6, pk 181 (19)
- Rice & Johnson: rd 7 pk 225 (1.6) & pk 253 (1)
Without trading any current players for draft pick compensation, I believe it came down to these two simple draft options:
- To take Frazier; Ortiz & Co. would stay put at 2.37 to take him there. No Ladd McConkey. The team kept all their draft picks (9 total).
- To take both McConkey and Frazier: Keep the trade with NE for McConkey. But for Frazier, trade away 4 picks (3.69, 4.105, 5.137 & 5.140) for a high or mid 2nd rd pick. Now the team is left with 6 picks (1.6, 2.34, 2.##, 6.181, 7.225, 7.253. No Colson, Eboigbe, Still & Hart.
Before the injury at CB’s and haven’t seen Tarheeb and Hart in real game situations yet along with Colson’s persistent injuries and slow growth, I could have made the argument that a trade up to take Frazier would’ve been a better move. But after having seen Still and Hart especially played and some good size sample of plays from Colson and with Eboigbe’s potential, the 4 players vs 1 (Frazier) with the potential of two or three starters out of four for some years to come, the choice to keep these picks to pick up these players was the correct choice. For what Ortiz has shown/proven so far, I have never been this excited about a GM before for the coming seasons.
The best way for the Chargers to have gotten both McConkey and Frazier (or JPJ) would have been to trade down from 1.5 to accumulate either an extra 1st or extra 2nd round pick. For example, perhaps they could have traded with the Vikings for 1.11 and 1.23... though I don't know for sure if the Vikings offered that deal. The cost would have been Alt, and it appears he is going to be great.
But imagine this draft. First, two trades:
- Trade 1.5 to Vikings for 1.11 and 1.23
- Trade 1.23 and 7.33 (253) to Lions for 1.29 and 3.9 (73) -- basically same trade Lions made for 1.24
Then, this notional draft:
- 1.11 (11) TE Bowers - great for Raiders; TE1 solved long term
- 1.29 (29) WR McConkey - WR2 solved long term
- 2.5 (37) C Frazier - playing great for Steelers; C1 solved long term
- 3.5 (69) LB Colson
- 3.9 (73) RG Puni -- playing great for 49ers... RG1 solved long term
- Admittedly, I don't know if the Chargers would have picked him, so they could have missed on this pick
- They could also have taken RB Corum, among others
- 4.5 (105) IDL Eboigbe
- 4.10 (110) CB Still -- showing same player at earlier pick for simplicity
- 5.5 (140) CB Hart
- 6.5 (181) RB Vidal
- 7.5 (225) WR Rice
Assuming the different players would be producing with the Chargers similarly to how they are with their current teams, this would have been a much better draft IMO. 4 starters on offense instead of 2, all at positions that are currently weak on the Chargers roster, as was evident entering the draft.
With Frazier at C and Puni at RG and no Alt, Pipkins would be at RT. How well would that be working? Hard to say. But substitute the best remaining OT for Bowers, and this draft is still better. That player could have opened the season as a swing tackle with Pipkins starting at RT, or vice versa.
I'm not criticizing Hortiz, et al. Their actual draft was great so far. This just illustrates why trading back in the first round is so powerful. I look forward to seeing that happen one day.
These draft scenarios would have worked so well for sure to fill many holes. I just don't believe the Vikings were offering up that much for 1.5. I think Ortiz and Co. would have jumped at such offer w/out blinking if there was one like that. For sure, "trading back in the first round is so powerful".
@tau837 I definitely agree that trading back would have paid dividends, and the draft looks considerably better than what we ended up with.
The caveat I have is that although it looks superior when just looking at the 2024 roster, I still think (although I didn't at the time of the draft!) that the opportunity to have two elite tackles if pretty dang rare, and the staff was likely correct to jump on it. If we zoom out and look at it as a two-year (hopefully not three-year) rebuild, and the center/guard positions get addressed appropriately, we're going to be ecstatic.
It's honestly why at the time of the draft, when we made the move for McConkey, I strongly felt we should use the 2025 1st to trade back into the 2024 2nd to grab JPJ or Frazier. I was texting @ryanwatkins, "There is first grade talent on both sides of the ball because of this weird QB/T/WR run... it's pushed tons of defensive line and IOL talent down the board that's probably equivalent to what'll be available for us next year with our first." I was getting a little frantic, I felt very strongly about it, especially since we have so much cap space to help reload in 2025... we weren't going to be as dependent on draft picks as we were in 2024.
It's honestly my only gripe about the draft. I thought there was a huge opportunity there, especially for a team like the Raiders who missed on a QB and might need to stockpile 2025 firsts for a potential trade-up into the top-3 picks.
@kylededi Actually without all the draft trade gymnastics, in hindsight the easiest thing to do would have been to replace the Egboigbe pick with a C. Outside of the 7th rounders, he has easily been the smallest contributor from the draft class, and honestly the pick felt like a reach at the time. Of course, you could argue we had no idea that Tart would become available in August, so IDL was a need, but I have always felt IDL is a sweet spot for second wave FA and post roster cuts to plug in some effective bodies. What makes the lack of drafting a C even worse, is that we are one Bozeman injury away from the worst C room in the league. Also, if this new staff had any idea of what they had in Henley, I doubt Colson would have been the pick in Rd3, so that could have been another selection for a C.
One of my biggest issues with Telesco, and you know there were a few, was that he never drafted from the strongest positions in drafts, especially when that position was a need. 2023 was a prefect example, this roster was screaming for a TE and in the deepest TE draft in a decade he didn't take one. I always feel that even if you do not necessarily "need" one of the strongest positions it is good to take one of them in the draft. You have no idea how future classes will grade out at those positions and you could be left reaching on a lesser talent because of it. I really hope that doesn't come back to bite us with C.
@kylededi The easiest path to Monday Morning QB the draft is to take Tanor Bortolini instead of Eboigbe in the 4th.
I was on the trade-down train with most of us and agree that that would have been a better approach, especially with the holes on this roster and the coaching staff's deep knowledge of the players coming out. Disappointed that didn't happen. I do remember hearing that there were no reasonable offers, so the Chargers picked Alt, which is still a great pick.
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