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First off....welcome everyone!! Isn't it great to have new digs with actual 2024 Charger-centric content??? Many thanks to both Kyle & Ryan for pulling this together & the content they're already supplying. Also thanks to the TDU mates for their podcasts....& a Jack sighting with his first article! Good stuff, mate.
With all of that said, I thought we could use a place for general OTA discussion. I'm gonna kick it off by posting Popper's initial takes.
Go Chargers!!!
@buck-melanoma I noticed the Chargers Twitter account showed a long ball from 10 to QJ yesterday and the entire time was thinking "is he gonna drop it?" and of course my better sense prevailed that they wouldnt do that to the young lad. Really hope he can pick it up this year - think he has a chance to be better
We have all pooped on Pipkins playing guard but it sounds like thats where the battle will be for him. Should be interesting
@pistol495 yeah, I of course wish QJ success....he's a Charger! But I don't think the last staff did him any favors regarding how he was used & putting him in positions to boost his confidence. Hopefully the approach of this staff will be different & successful.
I don't like the idea that the coaching staff did not do him any favors. Staley stook his neck out for him regularly after many drop balls. It's also likely difficult to craft or tailor the offense to a rookie who is an average athlete and a poor ball catcher.
@pandemicpapi There were dropped balls, but not that many in number (just at crucial points). QJ didn't get many targets because he wasn't able to get separation. Maybe they need to go back to the slants for him. In that way, he may not have been used to his best advantage last season.
@pandemicpapi they drafted him for a specific trait....YAC ability. They did him no favors in not designing plays to enhance that ability. If you're not going to spend some effort in designing plays around your first round draft pick that seems derelict, IMO.
@buck-melanoma: This is especially egregious as the OC was the one pounding the table to take Johnson. If that story is true (Moore wanting QJ), the my god, Kellen was a horrible hire. There was buzz about him becoming a HC & even some fan discussion about firing Staley mid-season and handing the team over to Moore. Looking back at 2023, I think Moore deserves a good chunk of the blame for the dumpster fire season.
@kevdiego me being one of them. This time last year I thought that BS's defense would fail again and there would be some level of success on offense to keep KM as HC. Looking back I do think KM deserves part of the blame with the QJ draft selection. Did anyone give him the memo that it was a make-or-break season and everyone's job was on the line? And if so, why select QJ? Should have selected a better WR prospect (Addison or ZF) or even a TE.
@pandemicpapi At the time, I wanted Flowers. In hindsight, I think Kincaid would have been the better choice.
We all want QJ to succeed. Let's see if this coaching staff can find success with a player the previous staff failed miserably.
@pandemicpapi Completely disagree. He had 2 drops on the season. He did not make contested catches often, but failing to make a contested catch is not equivalent to a drop.
The coaching staff did not use him properly. I just posted another topic about QJ with references to a number of sources saying that.
@pistol495 Much like the Keenan situation was a bit of a blindside to us as it appeared they had already addressed their cap needs, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they are letting Pipkins "battle" for that guard spot, but ultimately are waiting for the post-June 1st milestone to start shopping him so they can spread his prorated bonus dead cap over the next two years. It's probably something I'll break down in an article when I have a chance 
@kylededi I tend to agree with you about this being the intent with Pipkins. Unless he were to show MAJOR improvement, I just can't see the new regime continuing this experiment.
@buck-melanoma unless there's a better OT3 available, I don't think he needs to be cut for cap reasons at all.
@duck07 I'm not at all certain that a better option won't materialize, whether already in camp or as cuts happen. Hortiz isn't Telesco....he's gonna keep working throughout the season to improve.
@kylededi Makes a ton of sense. He really did not show much promise in any facet plus hes a dreaded TT 3rd rounder whos destined to never amount to anything
@pistol495 I honestly think he can be a serviceable tackle, but I just see no reason why guard would be a fit. His strength was always his movement, especially laterally, and it seems like his play strength improved to where we no longer folded like a lawn chair when an EDGE met him, but I still can't see him anchoring in the interior effectively.
Reuniting him with Tom Telesco just makes too much sense. He loves the guy, and I doubt we're threatened enough by him to think it's a bad idea to trade him to a division rival with a fat "?" at QB and our EDGE players.
His strength was always his movement, especially laterally, and it seems like his play strength improved to where we no longer folded like a lawn chair when an EDGE met him, but I still can't see him anchoring in the interior effectively.
This is exactly the point. Looking back at Trey's RAS (8.86 overall):
- Explosion: Elite
- Speed: Elite
- Agility: Good
- Size: Good
- Strength: Poor (1.16).
The dude put up 16 bench presses (@225 lbs). In my 20s, I could get 20+ and I weighed 190 and I'm pretty sure my RAS would have been approaching a very Larry Roundtree-esque zero . For an offensive lineman, Trey came into the league very weak, and it showed in his play. Hard to imagine Trey eating enough spinach to play guard in the NFL.
FWIW, Salyer put up 31 bench presses (almost double Trey's total).
@kylededi Kyle, I do not see that happening with shopping Pipkins. It's not like we have extreme depth at OT. Injuries are inevitable, so why would we weaken our depth at this point with very limited options to replace his level of play or think Harbaugh would be willing to get rid of one of his "5 best OL" at this point? If we were not willing to trade him earlier or cut him, why do it now post draft and deep into FA when we would not be replacing him with a better or even same level of player? If we were to trade him, who would the swing tackle be? You can't say Salyer because trading Pipkins now also means Salyer is most likely your starting RG, and if we have to move him out to an OT spot that changes multiple spots along the line. At this point, I think Pipkins stays unless one of the UDFA surprises and just really balls out in OTA and TC and shockingly earns a spot on the OL forcing Pipkins to be a trade candidate at that time, but not now.
@erick-v If Pipkins proves me wrong and is a solid RG, I'd be thrilled. He's definitely proved me wrong before!
But yes, I prefer Salyer becoming the swing tackle. I'm open to the idea that a better coached line and a better center leads to a better year for Salyer, but I also think free agent additions Dalton Risner and Connor Williams could be added at very reasonable numbers (Connor on a two year deal, I hope). Williams might take time to recover and land on the PUP or IR to start the season, but Risner is an immediate (cheap!) upgrade over Salyer or Pipkins at RG. Even if Salyer wins the camp battle to stay RG, Risner would be amazing depth... although I like some of our pieces, I think offensive line depth should be a blend of post-hype vets with plenty of starting experiences, and green guys that you're developing and waiting for a chance to test. We've only really gone the "guy we've hung onto for two long but don't have backup plans" with our depth in the past.
Part of why I like this move is because I think Tom Telesco is apt to overpay for Pipkins. I could see him spending a 3rd or 4rd round pick on his favorite ol' project, and getting him for $2.5mil/year less than what he extended him for here. He drafted another third round tackle project for the Raiders this season, so it would actually be the perfect move to let that player develop, and let Trey fill an immediate starting need.
@kylededi I would be down for that as I wanted them to draft Risner coming out of K State. If this was indeed the plan I would love it, but I would prefer to have Risner or Williams signed before dangling Pipkins away.
@kylededi Dalton Risner had a PFF run block grade of last year of 50.0 (65th out of 79) might be why he would not be a Harbaugh/Roman target.
Jamaree Sayler had a run blocking grade of grade of 49.4 (68th out of 79). Both players well below average as run blockers.
Conner Williams at center had a run block grade of 71.7 (7th out of 36) and a pass block grade of 90.5 (2nd out of 36)! Wowsa!! 6’5” 317 and only 27! He, when recovered, could be the Chargers center of the future.
And Kyle, I just reread your article on Connor Williams! Great insight on signing him, starting him on PUP and making him long term solution.
@pistol495 I remember QJ was looking amazing in last year’s training camp too. I’m tempering my expectations with QJ, but yes. It would be amazing to see him turn the corner.
@pistol495 Chargers social media didn't help QJ by posting a video where Herbert threw him a ball that he chest caught and slightly bobbled before securing, followed by a deep pass to Chark immediately afterwards which Chark caught in his hands beautifully with outstretched arms. I'm rooting for QJ and hopefully they find creative ways to get it into his hands before contact arrives.
@alisterlloyd Alister, I have been watching a bunch of QJ clips from last season and college to try and see if I could see a way that Roman can incorporate him into the offense to be as successful as he was in college. What I really noticed is that he is NOT a good hands catcher. He prefers to body catch the ball (even back at TCU) and will even jump to make body catches at times instead of extending his arms and plucking the ball out of the air. IMO, this is the reason he is not comfortable being a down the field target where it is imperative to be able to high point the ball in contested catch situations and is even important of having to catch the ball outside of your frame or with extended arms on balls that might be just out of reach. I think this is the exact reason he prefers, and has had his most success, on dig routes, slants, comebacks, and crossers, because those are routes that can easily be body caught. One thing I will say is that he does have some deceptive quickness and suddenness that seems to surprise DB, because he was really good at drawing flags last year against DB. Maybe they were not expecting him to be running those deeper routes as the scouting reports coming out of college were that he preferred the shorter routes? I would say that learning to be a hands catcher is something that can be emphasized and worked on, but at the end of the day, especially in crunch time, people and players tend to revert to what they are comfortable with and have had success with, so unfortunately, the body catching is probably here to stay. Early indications out of OTA's seem to be confirming that. Time will tell.
@erick-v excellent point! I assume that it is the way he has always caught the ball and it is deeply engrained. Very hard to teach/coach that out of someone. Muscle memory can be a good/bad thing. Begs the question of the scouting/selection process. If you struggle to catch correctly in college should the thought be that it will continue or go away through NFL coaching? Not a risk that I would take in round 1. And part of the reason TT is no longer in LA.
im not confident that this will all get fixed. At this point it is sunk cost and the best 5-6 WRs should make the team. The best 2-3 should play and garner the targets regardless of draft position.
@erick-v This is great stuff. I remember trying to be positive and making a big deal of a couple big hands-catches in a training camp article to try and inspire some hope... but yeah. I'm pretty bummed with where we are at with QJ. Spamming him on the routes he's comfortable with could make all the difference in at least getting consistent production out of him. If they do manage to create that kind of role, it would be very interesting to see if he can finish out his entry contract, and what his second contract looks like.
1st round receivers can do great for the comp formula if you pad their stats...
@kylededi Your conversation on QJ makes me remember the video Brett Kollmann did on Malachi Corley before the draft and his comparison to Rashee Rice. Brett sums up Corley as the YAC king but not a very good tracker of the ball on deep passes and bad at contested catches.
In the comparison to Rice, Kollmann shows how Reid limited the usage of Rice to maximize what he does best. With 79 receptions for 938 yards and 7 TDs, I would call that a pretty successful strategy.
It gives me hope that a competent staff can maximize a player like QJ to become a valuable asset on the team.
Here is the video:
The comparison begins at 4:26.
@erick-v Good to see you commenting here on STORMMMCLOUDDD.
QJ has one obvious strength IMO, which is his movement skills for a big guy, particularly his ability to take a comeback and then explode back upfield in a single movement. It's impressive.
QJ has an obvious weakness too. For me, he just doesn't have it as a receiver and most likely never will. The French would call it je ne sais quoi. Andy would call it proprioception. Scouts would call it 'not a natural hands catcher'. You could also call it being an athlete and not a football player. All the natural things that make the best receivers who they are, I don't think QJ has in his repertoire; from feel for the position to body positioning to catching everything thrown is way.
The good news is it's possible to bring value to an NFL team without having that type of WR1 potential. We can find other guys to win as true "X" receivers, indeed, we've tried to bring in some already like Chark and Cornelius.
What QJ needs to do now, is forget he was ever taken in the first round in a weak draft class (which he probably should never have been), and focus on being the best football player he can be. As you say, that's showcasing his explosive athleticism and helping out his teammates however he can whether as a decoy on vertical routes or as a run blocker. He could also do with packing on some muscle with Ben Herbert on that relatively skinny frame he's got, which doesn't help him fight through contact.
I'm rooting for him to prove me wrong. But I'm also hoping the team moves on from him relatively quickly if it becomes apparent after this season (and next) that he's not a top 3 WR in an NFL Offense.
@alisterlloyd I agree with all of this Alister. I would add one other in my mind perceived, hard to quantify, intangible he lacks and that is the confidence, attitude, mentality you see in most successful WR’s. Maybe he will build confidence but inherently he lacks the swagger I would expect from an early round WR. Allen had it. So did MWill although a bit less obviously. They wanted the ball in big situations. I don’t see any of that from QJ so far. The interception to end the Dallas game is a prime example of that lack where he was out-physicalled for the ball. The drop against GB is another example. That drop was all mental IMO.
@gbgh Nice shoutout, GBGH. If that thing he hasn't got that I alluded to is as simple as confidence maybe there is hope for him yet with Harbaugh arriving in town. Harbaugh saw QJ at his absolute best in college, destroying DJ Turner and the Michigan Defense in the Fiesta Bowl for 6 rec/163 yds/1 TD. Harbaugh seems like the type of guy to bring the best out of people and the Fiesta Bowl gives him ample ammo to motivate QJ. IF Harbaugh can't get him up and running it simply wasn't meant to be for poor QJ. Here's hoping.
@alisterlloyd Please let this coaching staff be one that plays the best players irrespective of draft position 🙏🙏🙏
@buck-melanoma Man Buck, you aint kidding. Bog props to Kyle for all his effort to give us knuckleheads a place to go and talk about the Bolts!! Can't wait to see what it brings, especially with a passionate group we are starting with and hopefully we can add a ton more. So exciting!!!
Anybody know of any injury update for Junior Colson since yesterday?
@unclejammsarmy I only read that he walked off with the trainers. No details or updates to my knowledge.
@unclejammsarmy no, can’t find nothing. Hoping that “harder to break” does not come back to haunt this team.
@spanos-must-go most I've seen.....
https://boltbeat.com/posts/chargers-already-dealing-injury-scare-junior-colson-otas-01hygkkwgfqf
it's BoltBeat but I read similar a few places.
@unclejammsarmy the fact that he walked off the field is a good sign to me. It doesn’t appear to be anything that would hold him out of training camp.
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Hello, friends. Still figuring shit out here. It seems you have to comment enough to be allowed to post a topic. I dig that. Having said that, I don't know where else to put this. Just curious how everyone will be handling BFTB from here out. I'm happy to leave it behind, but there will come a time I think where it will be back up and useful. Yall still gonna dabble with it?
@feeblepubliccableaccessshow my plan is to handle BFTB very little....like they handled our community.
Just curious how everyone will be handling BFTB from here out.
I know when MP is back, he will be right back to posting frequently, and provided tons of breaking news and great updates. This site will likely never be able to compete with the speed at volume of content VOX is able to put out, but that's also not necessarily our goal. I don't want to take away from BFTB at all, and certainly don't want this to feel like a "strike" from the site that originally brought us together. It'll still be a solid source for Chargers news and content, regardless of how well this site does.
That said, I'm trying to put in features that will help get "Breaking News" stuff up faster, such as allowing reverse-cross posting so certain Topics posted to the forum will become article plastered to the Home Page, and eventually, one day, hit Google SEO that even land them on search queries. Like the "new topic" restriction, this kind of feature will probably be restricted to members who have posted a very high post count, just to keep it from being abused. That way, instead of waiting for a breaking news article to populate to begin discussion, community members that are in position to beat our writers to the punch can get right on it.
Hopefully BFTB is still a site everyone visits for news, but I really hope this site be comes the leading Town Hall for Chargers fans to congregate and discuss all things football.
@kylededi 2-3 times a day I visit this site. I do this first everyday. I visit BFTB every few days. I come here for intelligent discussion, good information, and serious fans. I come here because I love the Chargers and now have a place to discuss this team that is troll-free and consistently providing content.
@spanos-must-go Yep, this site is growing quickly. I may not post a ton but I come to this 2-4 times a day. Thank you Kyle and company fur building this site and thank you to all the members posting.
🏈😎👍
Also, used to be GivemHell54 just in case anyone wonders who I am. Trivial, I know. Liking the new digs!
Also again, Sorry for the annoying Jim Carrey thing I got going. Distracting.
@feeblepubliccableaccessshow I will never, ever complain about more exposure to Jim Carrey 🤣 Stoked to see you over here! Yeah, there are a couple built-in spam-protectors that I can toggle with, but once I get a greater understanding of how everything works I'm going to make some quick "how to's" and informational posts/quick screen shares.
I've been really impressed by how many features this forum has - I just need to keep learning, expanding, and growing.
I'll probably post some polls at some point to see what else everyone wants. Another thing we could have is private messages, but I feel like that's something that could get abused or actually dissuades public conversation, so I'm torn on that one.
@kylededi there have been a lot of times when I wished for the PM feature, mainly to exchange personal info with other members...but yes, it could absolutely get abused as well & create a crap show.
On another note.....
@buck-melanoma Most intriguing part of that article to me:
The team now has one spot open on the 90-man roster.
This....this excites me.
BTW Buck - I thought the same thing. What I coulddo is allow email to be shown on profiles if that's a good compromise? We can keep stewing on it.
Popper's take.
Some interesting nuggets in there, Buck.
- Pipkins-Alt combo stayed in place the whole day. It's looking like the starting line is solidified
- Outside of injuries, it looks like McFadden will be the leading utility lineman, coming in as a 6th lineman in heavy sets, and occasionally as a fullback. This feels especially noteworthy as this is the second coaching staff in two years that have seen him, and thought "We need to get creative to get this guy on the field."
- Salyer is getting work at RG and RT, McFadden was subbing in at LG, but was still rotating through. Salyer looks to be our swing tackle and guard, unless they are really trying to see where he fits in best.
- Jaimes was in as backup center for two different units, looks like he got all the second team work. He might be our backup, and potential center of the future. Hopefully he keeps improving!
@kylededi I'm going to be quite shocked if Pipkins wins the starting RG position. I just don't see him having the functional strength to hold down that spot. So....is it that he's ahead there or are they giving him an intense look to determine if he should start? More to be revealed.
I'm still concerned about center & will remain so until proven unfounded. We all witnessed the overall decline in line play last year when Linsley went down.
Usage of McFadden could introduce some fun looks at the goal line. Whatever it takes....I'll conjure the ghost of Al Davis here....just win, baby!
@buck-melanomak-melanomak-melanoma I wonder if it's a tactic to try and trade him still? I feel like that ship passed though, unless they are going to wait for the gap between mini-camp and training camp to aggressively pursue it.Harbaugh gets a lot of blind trust... but I'm be going absolutely nuts if this was happening under the old regime.
Saw you in the comments earlier today at another site 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
@kylededi I couldn't resist throwing a little shade at the Voxsuckers.
@kylededi It would really surprise me if they trade Pipkins. OL is a league-wide challenge. The Chargers have a luxury right now:
- One of the best LTs in the league (Slater)
- A rookie first round pick who should become one of the best RTs in the league (Alt)
- A first round pick at LG who should be at least above average under this coaching staff (Zion)
- A veteran at center (Bozeman)
- 2 players who have played one or more seasons at OT and been at least okay (Pipkins and Salyer)... one of them can play RG and the other can be the swing tackle
- A couple IOL players with some potential, especially under this coaching staff (Jaimes and McFadden)
- A former first round pick who might be able to rebound (Leatherwood)
- A couple UDFAs with at least some potential (e.g., Barnhart)
IMO trading Pipkins would really weaken the depth. Given the emphasis that the new regime puts on OL, it would surprise me if they did that.
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