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Don’t be fooled by 20-points. The Chargers have 10-first downs entering the 4th quarter. Stick unable to generate consistent drives.
Man the number of plays that haven't even developed because Stick's internal clock is broken is depressing.
PS: How in the world is defensive holding call on a run play possible TWICE?
I have been defending Stick a bit, but I really don't get his shitty play this pre-season. While not great last year, he was not horrible either. He looks lost in this offense. Will be interesting to see who is waived and what moves the Chargers make.
What makes no sense to me about Stick is how has seemingly everyone not named Chris Hinton or Easton Stick not improved. JT Woods for goodness sake switched positions and made plays out there today but the guy whose been in the same room as one of the premiere talents at the QB position and supposedly see's the game in the film room got worse?
To me Herbert will only get better having someone that is actually NFL caliber sitting in the QB room. All arguments made to retain Stick seem DOA after these 3 preseason games. Given the time of possession differential in all 3 of the games, it's amazing how the defense has performed with guts and grit. Lance looked better than Stick and he threw 5 picks lol
Welp, Morris-Brash, welcome to the 53.
@dtsmith-fiatbux he’s earned a spot for sure. Much better player than Rumph. Rumph is a ST player though.
I think maybe they'll get to avoid making that decision if Rumph can be placed on PUP/IR, or whatever the hell you call it before cut day 😀
OK THAT was
@kylededi I'm not really sure but it's no major change as far as ease. Man it's weird seeing big plays in big moments happen like this. Coaching is on point. Players buying in.
If you're using the Article page ( https://stormcloud.blog/chargers-cowboys-preseason-open-thread/), it updates live so you don't have to refresh, has a chat bubble that let's you know when new comments happen, and highlights new posts in yellow.
It also posts the most recent stuff first.
If you've already used the Article page version, there's no major recent change... I'm just curious how it worked for people in a day where we've had rapid comments coming in.
Looks like the article page. I didn't really have many issues. It switched on me a couple times but I think it was something on my end as far as commands go.
@kylededi I didn’t notice any of that so I must have been in the forum.
I'm not sure either, but I agree - it's easier/better to use. Having to scroll across multiple pages is annoying, but would be unworkable on a game-day thread.
@kylededi I think I’m on forum, but I’m not sure. Haven’t tried the search feature yet, but I love the “most recent” updates. I’m watching the last two minutes of a preseason game on a sunny Saturday afternoon. What the hell is my problem?
I was on the article page and it's great. It's like a better version of the SB nation commenting system with some extra bells and whistles. I like it a lot.
We will see how it holds up during a regular season game but this sure as hell feels and looks promising!
What a great play by Matt Hankins!!!
And then I’m not sure that coming out of a timeout that Stick or runnng back shit the bed. One first down ends game and we are going backwards.
Lots of decisions to make regarding guys dangling between numbers 47-58 on the roster. Can’t wait to hear the TDU take on things. Sunday morning in Melbourne. Get to work, gents.
Sorry haha! I just finished watching with Andy here slightly delayed.
Decisions, decisions, decisions.
Fehoko > Rice & CJ (both cut?)
Would Tau still cut Derius Davis?
Who's the 9th OL? Sarell? (I prefer Willis Patrick)
The team seems to like Stone Smartt but I'd go with Dissly, Hurst, Parham, Fisk
Tony Jefferson > JT Woods.
Neither Cam Hart nor Eboigbe showed much (if anything) this preseason, but I think they're both safe.
@alisterlloyd Good morning. Id still cut Derius Davis, but the only thing I despise more than the jet sweep is Al Davis, so take me for what I am.
My $0.02:
- I think Fehoko is WR6. Mostly because Johnson and Rice have not elevated into the role. At this point, I think I would keep Gill over Johnson/Rice
- I would not cut Davis, but because there are no other WRs on the team. I still think the dude needs to learn how to do something other than a jet sweep.
- I thought Willis did not have a great game. I thought Leatherwood looked horrible. I think (hope?) OL9 is on another team's roster at the moment.
- I thought both Jefferson and Woods looked really good. I just re-watched the condensed game - Woods speed is noticeable and he stuck his nose in to tackle. The play where he closed on the WR at the boundary and knocked the ball out of his hands was pretty awesome. Speed...
- I saw Eboigbe getting knocked around a bit. I didn't see anything from Hart that impressed either.
A few players that I have defended didn't do much either:
- Spiller, in limited snaps, didn't show much. They must either be sold on him or want him gone. Hard for any of us to evaluate him when he gets the ball twice and each time he's got a guy hitting him as soon as he gets the ball
- I thought Stick looked better, but still not great. He missed a few throws (and made several good ones). No fumbles and better ball control. I still think he played better last year than any QB on the Raiders roster this year. If he can find his way back to mediocre, then I am OK keeping one cheap backup QB
- The Chargers are going to cut DBs and RBs that are going to get snapped up by other teams. I do not see where a team is going to be going after any Charger OL or DL cut.
Good comments Kev.
I think JT Woods deserves credit for improving. However, today you could still see some of the problems he has taking bad angles to the ball carrier and his tackling technique is no bueno. He leads with the crown of his head. It led to one bad missed tackle and the two he connected with should have been wrap-up tackles and leading at the ball carrier risked him bouncing of the receiver. I like him in coverage. He's a great athlete too. If he makes the team, I'll get it and will root for him. But he remains a liability as a tackler and reader of the play still IMO.
I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other about Woods. I agree with the issues with fundamentals, but my gosh, the dude is fast and that can make up for other flaws. On the play I mentioned, he did lead with his helmet, but he closed a lot of ground and the crown of his helmet hit the receiver in the chest, knocking the ball loose, breaking up the past.
I think Woods has a lot of traits the coaching staff can work with. If he's cut, I'll get it (and hate him as a Raider). If he makes the team, I will look forward to seeing his growth.
@alisterlloyd Well, first, I would try to trade Davis, especially after that run. If I were Hortiz, I'd be working the phones tonight. But, yes, if I couldn't trade him, I would cut him.
I assume the reason for the question is the 70 yard run. Well, last season in actual games that count, he had a 51 yard run... and 13 other carries for 50 yards (3.8 ypc) and 15 receptions for 66 yards (4.4 YPR). That is pretty awful. An occasional big jet sweep is great, but it's an "icing on the cake" kind of play. To get on the field, he needs to actually be able to contribute as a WR, and we have not seen that. He is fast, but he is really small, with small hands, and likely a complete inability to be an effective run blocker.
Anyway, moving Davis would allow the team to keep both Fehoko and Rice while keeping 6 WRs. I would much rather see that.
To your other questions/comments:
CJ appears to be a cut... expect him on the PS, and expect he will play snaps on offense this season.
I would be very surprised if the 9th OL is not Sarell. I think that is a lock, and I agree with it.
Agree the team seems to like Smartt but I don't. I could see the team picking up a TE from another team's roster cuts, meaning the Chargers TE3 might not be on the roster today.
Disagree completely on Jefferson. He had a good game today... in preseason against non-starters and largely vanilla coaching. Woods has actually looked good lately at CB and thus offers CB-S versatility. I prefer him over Jefferson.
Agree Hart and Eboigbe are safe, and believe they should be.
Aside from all that, I remain interested in the FB situation. In 9 of Roman's 10 seasons as OC, he has had a FB play more than 400 snaps on offense. Are they not going to do that in this offense, or is McFadden going to play FB that much? The latter seems unlikely.
I've enjoyed thinking about your different reasons for cutting or trading DD, but if I was the GM, I've determined I would keep him:
- As today showed, he brings a unique element to an Offense. He can score the ball from anywhere on the field. I know that shouldn't be a primary reason for keeping a player, but I think it's helpful to have one guy on your roster who brings that point of difference. Like Jacoby Jones did in 2012, I could see him scoring a long TD in a big playoff game. Also, when he's on the field everyone on the Defense must account for him. That can open up opportunities for other receivers and is a boon for Roman's scheme.
- As a returner, I know you said he isn't Devin Hester. But his ceiling might be closer to generational than JAG. He did make the All-Pro as a rookie after all. Again, I like having that point of difference on your football team.
- His receiving production in college suggests he might have more upside as a receiver to tap into across his rookie deal than he showed in his rookie year.
- He's on a cheap contract (granted so are some of the others).
I guess if you posed a specific hypothetical I could arrive at a different outcome. But I would prefer to keep only one of Fehoko (6'4") & Rice (6'2") since Palmer, Chark and QJ are also all tall. Derius can be the back-up shiftier smaller player to Ladd. I like to build a diverse receiving room with guys who excel at different things.
Sarell's only advantage (I can discern) is his versatility. However, we already have 4 guys who can play tackle (Slater/Alt/Pipkins/Salyer) and Sarell plays poorly at every spot on the line. I don't really get why he's got so many opportunities in the NFL given how poorly he's played (possibly his five-star high school recruiting status). I guess Willis Patrick is likely to survive waivers, so I'm not too aggressive with this take. But Patrick has had a good preseason and I see the advantage of having a back-up Guard who's actually played Guard all his life.
You seem to be fairly anti-Jefferson, but the team looks deeper at corner than we thought heading into the season and Minter's scheme doesn't ask his corners to do as much as his safeties (which protects them). For example, Matt Hankins has been just as good as JT Woods at outside corner. Jefferson was really impressive today (even though it was against back-ups). It was how he read the QB's eyes that flashed most. Something JT Woods hasn't yet shown. The team needs a 4th safety and I would take Jefferson and risk Woods to the PS.
Matlock got some looks at FB today. But my surprise pick would be Tucker Fisk making the team as the 4th TE/FB.
@alisterlloyd You mentioned Jacoby Jones in 2012... he was Baltimore's clear WR3 and played 526 snaps on offense that season. Hard to see Davis getting many snaps on offense since by definition that means he is getting them instead of McConkey, Palmer, Johnston, Chark, Rice, and/or Fehoko. Thus, the odds of him scoring a long TD in a playoff game seem very low. I'd love to see it but don't think we ever will.
On your comment that his ceiling might be closer to generational than JAG... sure, anything is possible. But lots of guys have made All Pro as a PR... without researching it, I feel confident that many more of them were JAGs than turned out to be generational.
For an NFL WR, Davis's production in college was far below the norm. It would be a welcome surprise if he ever develops into a WR who warrants even 2 targets per game at the NFL level.
We'll see. I appreciate you finding the most positive perspective on it.
@tau837 The only game of college tape I had on Derius Davis to scout was his 5 catch, 101 yd performance in the National Title Game v Georgia (who had a fantastic Defense that year). Maybe that's colouring my view of what his future upside as a receiver might be.
I should also add that Foster Sarell had a good game last night per PFF. I wasn't paying that much attention to the OL on the 'live watch' other than noticing that the passer was being kept fairly clean. So, at least yesterday, Sarell appears not to have played poorly.
Interesting comments. Rice and Johnson's lack of production this pre-season has led me to the thought that keeping Davis is the better path. It's not that I disagree with your logic - I agree that keeping a WR that can't play WR is not great roster management. I just think that no other WR has taken Davis' roster spot from him.
I think both Jefferson and Woods can add value to the 2024 Chargers team. It was pretty clear in the game that Jefferson is a very smart player. He was diagnosing and positioning himself to make plays. Woods speed makes up for much of his shortcomings. I saw the dude fly in from nowhere several times to make plays. I think the Chargers need to find a way to keep both.
The Chargers have 6 above-average-to-great O linemen: Slater, Johnson, Alt, Salyer, Pipkins, Bozeman. McFadden may turn out to be OK. The rest are below-average. If Sarell is cut, I don't think there will be teams looking to add him to their roster. I actually think I would keep 8 OL, stash the rest on the PS, use the roster spot to keep a CB, RB or WR, then look to add a vet cut by another team.
@kevdiego here's one guys take on the final roster. I question a couple of spots here....
TE....not that the writer is wrong about Parham, but has Smartt overtaken him?
Safety....I like what I've seen from Woods playing more CB. Is it enough to keep him in the safety group?
WR....I think Davis sticks, at least for now. Roman needs to scheme more ways to utilize that speed.
RB....Bye Spiller.
Edge....Bye Rumph.
@buck-melanoma Rumph will probably go on IR designated to return. Not sure if that's what you meant by bye.
I was thinking more PS but yes, IR is likely the better option. I mean bye as in I doubt we're going to see him much, if at all, in a Charger uni going forward, barring injuries to the other edges.
@buck-melanoma Agree with Tau that Rumph is going on IR. With the injury history of Bosa and Dupree, and the age of Mack, having the extra edge player available is pretty important for the second half of the season
I think Smartt has improved a great deal. Not sure if his blocking is good enough for him to stick.
I really like what I saw from Woods vs. the Cowboys. Fast, around the ball. Physical. Looks like a different dude.
I don't see how you can keep Spiller based on the way he ran in the pre-season games. I am confused as to why he continues to get so few touches.
Yeah, I can agree with IR'ing Rumph for insurance. But I also don't think he'll see many, if any, snaps unless there's an injury and can't imagine him here next year unless something suddenly clicks. I think edge will be a draft focus next year.
Smartt has improved. Enough? I dunno. If availability is the tiebreaker then that's understandable. I just wish Parham could stay healthy because there is ability there, particularly in the red zone. His blocking though....ugh. Gates wasn't much of a blocker either....but he was Antonio Gates.
@kevdiego Jefferson was a very smart player in 2019-2023 also, but that didn't result in him playing much at all or playing well when he did play. IMO you are playing against the odds by keeping Jefferson and expecting that out of him against real QBs and non-vanilla offenses. Also, is he really going to play special teams and play them well enough? The team needs that from the 4th safety.
It would shock me if Harbaugh kept only 8 OL, even temporarily. If they find a roster cut they like better than Sarell, I expect them to keep Sarell initially and then replace him with that other player.
They could also be sneaky and cut Sarrell thinking that he won’t get poached, then wait a week and swap Sarrell off the PS for maybe Rice before week 1. I, too, doubt they face Vegas without nine OLs.
@tau837 Jefferson strung together several pretty good seasons 2016 - 2018. The question is if he's healthy enough to contribute in a supporting role.
I think they cut him & then ask him to come back to the PS. I believe he does not have to clear waivers & can sign wherever he wants if the Chargers cut him. Easy roster decision - just work a deal with him and have him as insurance on the PS.
I know he had good seasons in 2016-2018. 2018 was 6 seasons ago, about to be 7.
I'm fine with him on the practice squad, which keeps his veteran leader voice in the locker room and position group meetings. You didn't mention that in your post I replied to.
@tau837 Great discussion here. Thank you. I have a few thoughts to contribute:
- I agree 100% with your take on the Jefferson/Woods debate. For two years, I hated the JT Woods draft pick and believed that he was a horrible safety because he could not tackle to save his life, so matching him up one on one in the open field seemed like a disaster waiting to happen. But I like JT Woods the CB. That guy is long, has a good vertical leap, has good coverage skills and is very fast. His open field tackling exposure should be somewhat reduced at CB as well. Also, his tackling is at least improved, though still not a strength. What I see from Jefferson is a smart, but not overly athletic player that does well against reserves, but likely lacks the athleticism to be consistently effective against starting caliber players.
- I agree that Davis does not offer much as a WR, but who returns kicks for us if we trade him? I like what Gill has done in the preseason, but we are not keeping him. I think Fehoko has earned WR5 and he is a better athlete than some think he is. I am underwhelmed by what I have seen from Rice so far, but that is a very limited sample size.
- Regarding FB, I think McFadden has okay straight line speed for an OL player, but he does not seem very athletic in terms of moving to make blocks in open space. In that sense, he does not remind me of Ricard (Ravens) at all. We could get somebody that does not fit another team's scheme after cut down day or we could use one of the two bigger TEs that we brought in (Heins, Fisk) in that capacity.
That was a really bad drive. Stick is 12/29 187 yards 1-TD, 1-Int. This was against all backups and a full game.
@spanos-must-go I know it’s not terribly fair to do, but take away one play and the line drops to 11/28 109yds O-td 1-int. For a full game. Against non-starters. Not great.
To be fair to Stick, there were several drops and he was obviously told to throw to Rice a lot, even though he could not get any separation.
I have no idea what this staff thinks of Stick. The dude I saw play in 2023 was not great, but didn't completely suck, which is what I expected this year. For the salary cap allocated to him, I think he's fine as the 2024 backup, or at least I did until watching him play in 2024. Now, I less confident...
@kevdiego To me, Stick seemed way below average as a backup QB for the first few years of his career and then last year, he improved to being a below average backup QB. This preseason, it looks like he has regressed to being way below average. And honestly, Roman's system, which allows for more QB runs, favors Stick's game and he has still sucked mightily. His passing accuracy in particular has been horrible. So I am hoping we explore other options because I do not see us winning games that count against starting caliber players with Stick at QB. I think we need to explore an upgrade here and that some teams have 3rd and 4th string options that look better than Stick.
I think 2023 Easton was an average backup. Not great, but kept the team competitive with very limited skill position players. If you look at PFF grades from 2023, Easton is better than any QB on the Raiders roster:
- Stick: 66.8
- Gardner Minshew: 62
- O'Connell 65.9
Other notable backups (that are getting paid a lot more):
- Tyrod Taylor: 71.4
- Jimmy Garoppolo: 65.0
- Taylor Heinicke (who I've heard some clamoring for): 52.5
- Marcus Mariota: 66.3
Stick is not a hill I want to die on. If the team can upgrade, fine. Just pointing out that he's cheap and played OK under shitty circumstances last year. And yes, he's looked like shit all pre-season. Not sure if that's the system, the coaches telling him to throw to Rice all the time or if he just regressed.
Tipped by Morris-Brash
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